Monika (00:00.494)
Welcome to Guide to Afterlife, your life after loss of a life partner.
This space is designed to help you make room for life while you grieve. I'm your host, Dr Monika Wieliczko, a psychologist by profession and your fellow widow in private. Each episode contains an insightful conversation that is meant to stimulate curiosity and challenge the way we think about grief. Join me on this journey to rebuild life after loss.
Monika (00:38.9)
In today's episode, we are talking about relationships after loss. And with me today is Dr. Sara Johnson, a clinical psychologist. Welcome, Sarah. Hi, hi. I'm really pleased to join you. Thank you for agreeing to have this conversation with me. I would like you to introduce yourself, say a few things about yourself and why you're here. Okay. Well, I'm a widow. I'm a widowed parent and
It was over 10 years ago now, but there wasn't a huge amount of narratives or stories or resources that I was reaching out for that really, maybe I was looking in the wrong places, but they didn't come to me other than maybe I knew a couple of friends who had had a similar kind of experience. And interestingly, both of them were widowed parents.
and widowed in a very similar kind of way through illness. So there was a resonance and a chime with them and their experience that I felt really helped me in making these connections. And I think there are challenges that are quite specific to being a widowed parent that I think are really important to think about and speak about. And I often speak now, my children are older now, but we...
found over the years actually it's really helpful to talk about that. And there's a lot of silence I think, there's a lot of not knowing what to say in grief. And particularly when you're a young, you're widowed, you lose a partner as a young person, however you want to construct young, it doesn't kind of fit. And then you then end up feeling that you don't really fit as well in a kind of larger sense. So that kind of process.
being on a journey of how do I cope with this new identity? How do I parent my kids? How do I contain my own grief? Can I do that? How do I help them manage theirs? And then equally, we've spoken as well about the fact that I'm now in a new relationship and getting married in August. Still a lot to organize. And the challenges that that brings and being in a now in a
Monika (03:04.13)
blended family and the managing kind of all of those relationships and being a psychologist as well. That's our business, right? That's kind of helping people to think about relationships and thrust into this experience. How do you manage that, you know, yourself and then the impact that has on you? just all of that. All the angles, basically. So yes, and I think that
both bringing that personal and professional side today seems like such a valuable, extremely valuable conversation to have. There are not that many of us widowed psychologists out there. You're one of the few people I spoke to and found through social networks online, mostly through Facebook, really.
So, yeah, so I was very excited to get you to talk about your experiences, especially from that perspective of looking back at what it was like at the beginning. And I suppose that's where I would like to start today. If you could tell us a little bit about your story of grief, what happened and how, I suppose, how you coped with it. Yeah, so I met Rory and
We were both living in Brighton and became really close quickly and moved in and had a baby before we then got married. Moved house and did all of the things that young couples do. we then moved back to where I'd grown up and was raising our daughter and then we had a son. And really it was just after I'd had Sam and I was really iron deficient.
after I'd had him and was really quite fatigued. And Rory was saying, do you know what? I think I'm going to, I think I might be iron deficient as well. I'm really quite fatigued and not feeling myself. And a couple of days later, he bizarrely, he kind of said, I'm just really not feeling myself. And do you know what? I think I'm going to hand my noticing at work. I think that's what's wrong. And so there was this sense of something. But in the way that you just, you know, we've got a two week old baby, you know, we're exhausted.
Monika (05:24.33)
But he went to the doctors, had a blood test and that was the start of it. So that revealed that his liver function tests were really quite off the scale, which you you learn a lot, don't you, as you go through, particularly if your partner then has a diagnosis of cancer, you learn a lot of medical jargon and LFTs and liver function tests was the start of it. So he was diagnosed with cancer, but for quite some time, they didn't know where the primary was. So we didn't know how treatable.
It was going to be, we didn't know prognosis. But that diagnosis came when our son was six weeks old. So he was still a baby. You know, goodness, how do you manage this? Yeah. I'm not quite sure how we managed it. Just the day to day of having a baby, feeding a baby, those kind of demands go on. So eventually he did get a diagnosis of, it was actually a very rare type of cancer called neuroendocrine cancer. We had to do a lot of research.
to find out anything, but it was actually that this type of cancer had, usually quite slow growing. People could live with it for years and years and had maintenance treatment. So naturally, and I think it is a human response, we latched onto that and held onto that in terms of hope for the future. And so we started having treatment and actually the first chemotherapy was actually was the second chemotherapy had a very bad reaction to was
in a coma for a few days. And we came through that miraculously. And I remember we were driving to the south of France three or four weeks later. Just unbelievable. I think perhaps now, looking back, we were already in that cycle of a bit of denial about what was going on. And he was like, no, we're going to go on this holiday. We've booked it. We're going. When I look back on the photos of him then, he's so thin and, you know, but we needed to hang on to.
bit of reality, I think, in terms of the crazy world that we'd found ourselves in. And that, looking back, was probably part of that. So he continued having treatment, actually did quite well, went back to work, got another job, was doing quite well. And then actually when he did pass away, it came very quickly. So I think that was quite a shock to everybody. We'd kind of got used to him living with cancer.
Monika (07:47.726)
And I think then when it became apparent that he was actually dying with cancer over the course of about two weeks, a shock for everybody, his friends, his family, our kids, you know, wasn't clear. Things were happening very quickly. And that was quite difficult to stay on top of and relate to. So we had a mixture really of a chronic illness and then an acute illness. Yes. So how long was that period since his diagnosis till death?
two and a half years. We lived with living with cancer for that time. was, we treatment, really quite specialist treatment involving kind of nucleotide drugs. you know, on the one hand, and he just thought that was hilarious. So it was that our life living with cancer was that something we adjusted to. So I think then we always knew that
you know, we didn't know what the future held, but we held on to hope and we were holding on to the future that we would hopefully have with our children. So, you we didn't particularly have conversations with, or particularly with our daughter, obviously our son was a baby, particularly about death and dying. And I think that is, that's a kind of a regret. think we probably could have all benefited with a little bit of that. And I think...
you know, she would probably say that too. So that was our experience and we were in what we were in at that time and using what we had. It's easy to look back with the benefit of hindsight and think, I wish we'd had more. time, yeah. You know, people talk about a good death now and I don't think that certainly wasn't around 10 years ago. Having said that, you know, the school that my daughter was at was brilliant. They provided a lot of support and our friends, you know, and family.
you know, we're very supportive throughout that. we couldn't have got through that. I was thinking about that, that experience of almost like, yeah, as you're saying, being in shock that it already happened, which I think happens when I think doesn't really matter whether we are prepared for it or not, whether we're expecting it to happen soon. I think there's always that shock. But I think what you're saying is that you wish there's a great regret maybe that you that you had a bit more
Monika (10:15.864)
preparation for it. And I wonder how do you think that impacted your grief afterwards when he passed away? Yeah, I think it left me very lost. I'd lost him, but I'd also lost that connection. I think that had we done things like, you know, memory boxes or something like that, we never did that.
think that would have been really helpful, not just for the children, but for me of having something of him to go forward with. Whereas I think I felt quite, you know, alone, which I was trying to kind of think, you know, what would he say or how would he handle this conversation or trying to put myself in those, in that place, but then equally struggling with my own feelings of feeling.
you know, really angry that I'd ended up, you know, where I was on my own, having to deal with all of this on my own and feeling quite angry at the world. I remember walking along and seeing kind of, you know, happy couples were my nemesis, you know, thinking, know, and just really, you know, it feels difficult to say, but really hating it. I was going to say.
Hate is the right word. Robbed from me. so, you know, bouncing kind of through all of those feelings and yeah, thinking, but actually I think the having to, having to do it on my own was, you know, I won't say a blessing in a cast, but there was also having the children was something that, you know, they needed to go to school. They needed to be fed. They needed.
you know, to be looked after. And that also gave me, I think, that kind of sense of structure and purpose and routine that was really helpful. So, yes. And with work as well, I did go back to work, albeit into a non -clinical role. So I was working as a clinical psychologist and I went back to kind of managing and developing a service. That was helpful too. Yeah. And I suppose what you're saying about
Monika (12:42.674)
looking at the couples and, you know, in the park or somewhere in the street being in love or, you know, the whole families. I mean, that does really bring up some memories for me as well. But I think it was more so before my partner passed away when he was critically ill and kind of that kind of experience of other people having normal life. That was really difficult. Yeah.
But I'm thinking specifically about that kind of seeing us and them, you know, kind of divide between, you know, people having those who have normal lives, their lives carries on, and we are kind of left behind in a state of grief. And as you're saying, that kind of trying to work out tremendous rage, anger, disappointment in life and how things turned out on top of having children sounds like such a complex. And
unbelievably difficult situation to be in where you have to carry on, but also there's a part of you, what I'm hearing from you is that it's screaming, I don't want to be doing this. Why do I have to be doing all that? This is unfair. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it was really unfair. And yeah, it was just making me think about the kind of two things actually, that kind of sense of isolation. And I think being, you know, on my own as in
on my own as a parent and as a wife, half a partner when the partner isn't there, but the relationship in your mind still continues. You're still in a relationship with your husband, but he's not there anymore. But that doesn't mean that the feelings have died just because he's not there. They're still there. So that sense of disconnection with the world, definitely. I remember
probably a psychologist would call it little bit of dissociation, but walking around a supermarket and thinking these people are living, feeling a bit like an alien that had just been dropped down from a spaceship somewhere, you know, and all these people are living their completely normal lives and I'm in a completely different world, you know, how do I, and other people saying, we're going to go out for dinner or we're going to do this or, you know, well, I couldn't.
Monika (15:09.784)
couldn't do that. Well, I could do it, but it would mean getting a babysitter doing the kind of and then what I was going to go out on my own. And how was that? How could I have a social life that was further on? How would I ever kind of, you know, what would that feel like? I luckily, I think my friends were just so supportive and understanding. So was that part of it, the loss of connection with the world?
But equally, and I don't know whether you have this, but that kind of managing other people's feelings about death was a big thing. I remember soon after Rory died, I think it was a chap coming round to fix the boiler or do something. And he left me a little kind of invoice. Perhaps he wasn't the most kind of woke of people. And he said, you don't worry about it, love. You get your husband to sort it out later. And I said, well, actually, you know, I don't have a husband. I'm a widow.
He looked at me with absolute tears in his eyes and was saying, my, I just can't, that's just not right. That's just, you know, and I was ending up in a position where I was saying, it's all right, don't, you know, but I'm okay. You know, and I was, I was then shielding, you know, trying to comfort him in terms of his, you know, and I think there's that pressure of I'm in this situation, but I'm okay. But actually inside, I'm not okay.
And what I hear is trying to manage those two worlds, the world that continues living and that you have to be a part of, but you don't feel like you really belong. And that world of the past with your, well, dead husband that you can't, you just kind of, you know, keep in your mind all the time. And that kind of conflict between those two worlds, which is in a way,
a task of grief, isn't it, to somehow figure it out? How do you live your life while you're when you've got this, you know, as you're saying, that relationship going on? So I think that is part of the conversation today, because that is also a part of the relationships that you have after loss. One is with your late partner who's still very much alive in your mind and
Monika (17:26.346)
it's very difficult to let go of that feeling of, I suppose, being in a relationship in the same way as it used to be. think there's something that needs to be worked through about that to make room for those other things. It's such a complicated and difficult process. And I know we're not going to do justice today to this topic because it's massive. And I feel really passionate about talking about this because I think this is somehow at the
core of grief is how do you work out those new relationships that emerge and as you're saying, know, there's this social life going on for your friends and there are people on the street having their own life and you're kind of stuck in between somewhere between life and death. Absolutely. I think you're very, you feel very stuck with it and this kind of
challenge of then being everything from a parent point of view. know, used to kind of, I think the one thing that I really missed at that point was, was working as a team. You know, you kind of, you do that and I'll do this. I was so angry at having to put the bins out for years. But it was kind of, that's, you know, that's a thing that by no means, you know, I'm an ardent feminist, but you know, I don't like putting the bins out.
Well, it's an agreement, isn't it? You're in a relationship and you share your responsibilities. do that. I'll do this. And I think it's that passing over between the two of you. We literally used to when Lola was little, you know, we were both working kind of, you know, full time -ish hours. And she was at nursery. And I remember there would be a physical handover, like, I'd go and pick her up from nursery, but then I'd go back to work and we'd meet up and...
hand her over in the car and then he would go off and look after her for the afternoon. it's that, you know, that of having somebody and having a relationship with that trust where you, that's how you manage the world. You manage the world together and it's that loss of together and teamness that I felt as well as, you know, the loss of the relationship, I suppose we would say, you know, the loss of, you know, that kind of
Monika (19:43.51)
intimacy, really. Yes. And I was thinking about, symbolically about this, those bins that you were left with all this rubbish, all this massive workload that you you had to do. And, know, obviously, you know, that something you you didn't want to do or felt like it shouldn't be like that. And, you know, all that shit that you left with to deal with at the end of it. And no wonder.
this frustration and anger and you don't want to get on with it because but then you have to at the same time with the kids and everything. Exactly. And I think that was something that when people would say to me, know, and in a compassionate way, know, I just don't know how you do it all. And my response would generally be, well, nobody's really given me a choice not to.
You know, it's kind of not something that I've sat down and thought, you know, can I can I do this? It's kind of, you know, it's so it was that I think. I look back and I think, you know, how did I manage all of that now? I think exactly the same. So because I'm a bit more kind of, we might say, it's a cycle just kind of integrated with it. But at the time, I think that was said in a bit of an angry way as well. Well, you've got choices, you know, and I
I don't have those choices anymore. They've been taken away. That was difficult. You're not supposed to be an angry person as a grieving widow, as a grieving parent. That's not really very acceptable to the world. Crying and sitting in a corner, yeah. But not too much because if you upset people too much, that's also wrong. So you have to manage those expectations.
Because if you're for too long or you're grieving for too long, then that's not right. An impossible situation. You should be out doing things, okay. But for me as well, also, what's practicalities of how I'm going to do that? got two young kids to look after. so managing that internally and creating, and I'm sure you've had similar conversations with other people who've been through grief, kind of reconstructing.
Monika (22:06.766)
parts of yourself as part of that. You know, feeling comfortable with that new identity as a widow, being able to speak of it to other people and yourself and accept it maybe. yeah, recreating different things. And it goes back to what you were saying before about the life that's on hold and the life that goes on. And I think as life kind of went on. So for example, when my son started school, he moved schools after a term.
and he was the new boy in the class. And then another came and he was the new boy and they became really good friends because they were both new. And I then became friends with the mum as you do. And I was talking with her and she's a wonderful friend. And interestingly, she lost her dad. She was a bit older in her teens, but obviously we then had that another connection. But what was interesting is I think, gosh, would have, her and Rory would have got on so well. They're really similar people.
don't know each other. And it's that kind of new friends who don't know Rory, making new friends, making these new connections was, you know, difficult, but also necessary. And, and quite nice to speak with her about, about Rory, somebody that she had never met, will never know and yet knows through me and through Sam, and can connect with. But I think what you're saying here about
how hard it is to create new relationships after loss because of that confrontation with the fact that it's something he will miss out on, that we won't be able, or we won't be able to experience this with you. I think, which is, think partially what happens in Greta, definitely, I definitely felt that, I suppose, I think mostly before he died and after he
Well, but when he was really ill and my my late husband was very ill that I couldn't just let myself have anything because obviously that meant that he wouldn't get something for himself. So how could I allow myself to have something? So massive sense of guilt, but also a reminder, as you're saying, that you get to live and he doesn't. And how do you let yourself have something? How do you let yourself
Monika (24:32.278)
have those relationships when you know that that's going to exclude him from your world of living, if that makes sense. I think that's such a crucial element and I was just thinking specifically in the context of romantic relationships and I wonder what that was like for you, obviously knowing that it's been quite a long time now, but what was that like for you? When did you start, when did you feel ready to start dating or thinking about that? How did that come about? I wonder.
I was thinking about this actually just before and I was thinking that concept of ready is kind of, my goodness. It's a bit like maybe there's a parallel with what we were saying before about kind of preparing for someone to die, okay, to a degree, but also there are lots of experiences that you can't ever prepare for until you're in them. And I was thinking that and thinking maybe, I don't know, two or even...
two or three years in, when will I feel ready? When will I feel ready to have a new relationship? I don't have an answer to that. I don't think it's a unitary thing. And I think unfortunately, you can only know when you're not ready. So I remember I had a couple of relationships where it was a relationship that I missed. It was being in a relationship that I wanted rather than, you know, being wholly in a relationship with that.
person, if that makes sense. I think there was an intimacy that I missed. And as soon as we, as soon as I kind of got into a new relationship or was on the kind of boundary, you know, the step, taking steps towards that, there would almost be like a kind of a giddy excitement within me, which of course you get at the beginning of a new, any new relationship. I can see now actually, you know, it was, it was, it wasn't right. There wasn't something. And I don't know at what point that's.
kind of disappeared, whether that was, it did in the end, but it was particularly in those first couple of relationships, it was very much about being in a relationship rather than about particularly about that person. And when I, and actually it was one relationship and when we broke up, he actually said that to me, I was in complete denial about it. I was like, no, no, it's not, it's not about, but actually it was, that was quite difficult. The mechanics of going out on dates as well and you know,
Monika (26:58.956)
making room for a new relationship. Exactly. How do you make room? And I could make room perhaps for that, but also it needed other people around me to make room. had to ask people to come and, you know, babysit and look after the kids. why, where are you going? Who are you going with? You know, you might not, you know, it has to be a kind of a commitment. well actually I'm going out on a date or are you, and the pressure of other people's kind of.
expectations or investment or, that's really good. That would be, you know, and you think, goodness, I'm not even, I'm not even there yet. That people are ahead of you because they want you to be happy. They want you to be, but equally I was happy. was happy. I was always said, kind of, I'm alone, but I'm not lonely. didn't feel the need to race into a relationship. So I thought, but, and I was focusing on the kids. I was focusing on my work. was focusing a lot on other people.
perhaps neglecting myself a little bit. But equally, I needed that time to reconstruct myself. But yeah, the pragmatics of dating, think, were difficult. did a few, you know, I think I needed to kind of create space with myself for a relationship before it could be invited in. I think that's probably how I'd look at it now. It's not a very straightforward, as you name it, it was a bit of a...
you know, a tricky question that there is no such a thing as ready or not ready. think that you kind of know it and then you go into that relationship and it works out. Sometimes it's you're saying it's about a process and sometimes until you go on a date and or start exploring the world around you that you you realize what it might be good to getting in a way and and then I kind of think
For me personally, there is never a point at which you feel like, okay, that's done, that grief is done, and now I'm completely ready to get on with my life and this new relationship won't be affected by my previous loss. I think that's a bit of an unrealistic expectation that we're ever gonna reach that point. But equally, as you're saying, you know, there are people who might be, you know, trying to get into relationship because they feel lonely and I...
Monika (29:20.322)
don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing that you want some closeness, but I think it's more about being aware why you're doing it and where it comes from and being transparent with yourself and with the other person. I think it's really important. Otherwise we kind of risking being hurt. mean, there's never a certainty that you're never going to get hurt when you start investing into another.
another relationship, but I think there's something there specifically about just transparency and honesty about where you are and making it obvious. Definitely. I think there's something making it obvious for the other person and making it obvious with yourself. And I think that does take time to be where you're at with it yourself and to think, okay, I can kind of, you know, I can enter into this in a
Yeah, with that kind of transparency with yourself. I think that does really take time and takes, you know, conversations and working through with particularly with friends. And I think also going back to having children, think also talking with them and helping is kind of almost a kind of like attending with that, you know, working with them and then working with yourself and kind of, and that's going on at the same time, but also, you know, crossing over and having conversations with
them as well about how would they feel, you know, how do they see the future? How do they kind of see the future for me? It's not about acceptance or permission, but I think it's just a general mapping out of the of the territory and where you're at. Because sometimes they might say, yeah, mommy, I wish you could meet someone. And I'd be in the place where I'd be like, No, I really just get the last thing I need at moment. And then also, you know what they might think about it. So it's a
delicate, kind of balancing act really, expectation as well as other people's expectations. Yes. I knew that it wasn't, I was always open to meeting somebody. For example, I did a lot of, I'd say a lot of, I did some internet dating and was always open to if there was somebody that I had a dialogue with, you know, then progressed into, well, should we meet up? And I'd be open to that. And obviously we went on some dates in the way that
Monika (31:45.56)
You you go on dates and you meet someone you think, you you're a really lovely person, you're just not for me. So it's the kind of that normal dating experience as well as that's happening alongside as well, which is difficult to navigate, you know, for all of us, do I like this person? Is it worth, can I trust this person? Can we go forward together? You know, are we similar enough? Are we different enough? You know, all of that as well. So all that exploration and
Yeah, and that exploration and making room to see this other person that just turned up in your life and that you're seeing on a date. just thinking how complicated and difficult that experience is when you're still kind of grieving and part of your mind is obviously preoccupied with something else.
They're making room, but also exploring yourself, exploring the other person that's sitting in front of you, which is, you say, stuff, normal dating stuff. But on top of that, there is this layer of comparing what they are like in comparison to the person you've lost and thinking, they might have good qualities or that your previous partner didn't have, or the other way around, that they are lacking certain qualities and they're completely...
rejected based on the fact that they can't do certain things or they may be just different people. And I think this whole idea of comparing, I'm fascinated by, because how could you compete with someone who died, in a way? It's a really tricky angle. I think other people's
expectations come into that as well. I know if I'd see somebody, so Rory was, he didn't have much hair and he shaved it off when he got into his twenties. So he lost a lot of it and then actively kind of shaved it off. And so if I, for example, if I went on a date with somebody who quite a lot of men nowadays have shaved heads, it's a thing that people would then say, yeah, it's just, you know, just like Rory. I was like, no, no. I think other people is that sense of,
Monika (34:01.068)
comparing because they're used to seeing you. You know, they were used to seeing me as Sara and Rory and being in a couple. And that's what if Sara's in a couple, that's what that means. And, and so it's that it's other people's feelings as well. So yeah, I think that kind of accepting somebody for who they are whilst you're still in that relationship with, know, with the person who isn't there anymore, it's really complicated. And it takes a lot to
to explain that to somebody, what that means that actually this person is. And I think it's interesting that I then found out I joined an organization called Way, Widowed is Young. We went as a family on a couple of their kind of away holidays at center parks and met other widowed parents. And that was really helpful, that connection, that not needing to explain, and I know my kids will say this as well, kind of going away and
not having to, everybody knew why we were there and being able to laugh at some of these things and just the kind of bizarreness of it and also express that rage of, know, just really angry that why did this happen to me? Not, you know, not that person over there and there's any so many things that you can kind of, feelings that are okay to express but finding your community, I guess, and getting that connection.
and thinking about what it's like to, you know, to parent in that way. And also for the kids to connect. Talk to somebody else who's lost their mom, lost their dad. Yeah, that sense of connection. So different journeys through the air as well. Exactly. Some of them were actively dating some of them. But interestingly, I did notice that obviously relationships formed through that group as well. And often widows would end up in relationships with other widows. And I, and I could see why.
because I think it's difficult to understand this process, this complicated journey that you're on of what that means, what's your identity, what being in a partnership means and being able to manage that, I think it's a challenge. And I know that in my current relationship, my partner isn't, he's divorced, he's been on a different journey. We've both been on different, both had different experiences and him being able to understand
Monika (36:28.226)
where I come from and me being understand where he's come from is essential. Exactly. mean, it very much resonates with my experiences with my current partner who is also divorced and, you know, bringing their different perspective because it's a different form of loss. Divorce is still a loss, but, you know, this person is still alive and, you know, if there are children involved from
know, from that relationship, and there are certain ties, there's certain there, there present that was, you know, this is so different must be so different when you confronted with, you know, reality that there is no divorce, the relationship didn't end by both people agreeing that it's time to end it. It doesn't mean that people are ready for it, or they work through it. But there is, you know, there's something a bit more
I don't know, it's just a different condition, I suppose, to death. Obviously, it's not like you've, that marriage ended in a way, it did through death, but the bond continues and it's not the same. It's really interesting that you say that because we were actually having this conversation the other day about, and you're saying about, you know, divorce also being, you know, a form of grief and a form of loss. think when we got together, and we'll talk about that maybe in a minute, but it's kind of...
I think the expectation, perhaps in Gareth's mind, I've got to be really careful with Sara because she's kind of this widow, and she's had this kind of enormous emotional experience. And all of this stuff has happened to her. And I think, actually, as our relationship has gone on, we've realized, actually, he's also been through a difficult, really difficult, difficult in lots of different ways, but also quite similar in lots of ways. The grief of...
of the loss of a marriage, the loss of hope and expectation that you go into. And I know, because I'll be doing it in August of actually this is something that we're committing to. And the loss of that is also really painful, but it's a different type of, it is a different type of loss. I think that's both recognising that, you know, there's no top trumps in grief. You know, it's kind of...
Monika (38:53.132)
you know, nobody wins, nobody's the most hurt, you know, it's kind of, we all have losses in different forms and being able to kind of understand that as much as we can is what's really important and create space for it too. Yeah, exactly. And I wonder how that came about for you and Gareth when he kind of turned up in your life and you know, how that was like, wonder, you know, all those challenges and, you know, opportunities, I really want
of want to kind of dive into that because it's so interesting, you know, how that comes about. It is interesting. And it probably relates back to what you saying about dating and that I'd been doing some internet dating and it must have been just the start of pandemic, maybe. so, you know, internet, you know, was all we had. Yes. In order to have any more communication.
And I was really, read, I was going through these phases of, yeah, internet dating. And I met Rory through internet dating. So I kind of had that investment of actually, this is something that can work and, know, and, but then I'd meet some people who have some conversations and just think, God, this is just, why am I doing this? And, and just, and I was in one of those phases of, just not going to do this anymore.
And I was on a website where you just, was, I was just getting loads of emails and it was just like spam. And I thought, right, I'm going to go on, I'm going to take off my profile from this website because I just can't deal with this anymore. And so I logged onto the website and like down the side of the page and it came up with all this person's kind of, this is it, you're a match with this person, this person. And I popped this photograph and a profile and I thought, one last, I'll have one last attempt at this. And then I'm never doing it ever again.
And maybe I was in a different mindset then of not so invested in it maybe of kind of a bit like, you know, all right, just one more and then I'm done with all of this. My mind was already kind of expecting, you know, I was in a different place with it and his profile was funny. I think that was one thing he's funny and kind of just the way that he put himself across. And we chatted a lot online before we met up in person. So we felt that we already knew each other.
Monika (41:14.442)
So all of those kind of things. I think that had created quite a lot of that space between us, you operating space, if you like, that we already knew quite a lot about each other's kind of set up and families and... So you cleared it out to saying that was very kind of transparent from the beginning. Yeah. Your situation and his situation. Yeah. Yeah. I think maybe it was almost also something about Covid as well that, you know,
maybe there was a different sense. I've not really thought about this before until I started saying it, but that kind of sense of, you know, well, this is a crazy, this is a crazy experience for everybody. And that kind of, we were all kind of seeking connection, weren't we? And so, so yeah, maybe it was a kind of just a might as well, nothing to lose here. But also there was a connection with him right from the start, as soon as we had our first video chat, I kind of I felt at home.
And in a way that I hadn't experienced before, that was different. think when we go back to the readiness, think I had a different feeling there. But I just wanted to say here, Sarah, because I think you're reaching that point when my mind starts to think that there's something about what you said, you're saying readiness, but I was thinking that conflict within you, part of you saying,
just rubbish, they're never going to meet anyone here, it's just going to shut it all down, never going to do any online dating again. But then another side of you saying, actually, this guy sounds interesting. He does kind of, I like his profile, there's some part of you that was able to actually have a dialogue internally, I wonder, because there's something really important about that kind of conversation and the dilemma between
wanting to be in a relationship and wanting someone in your life and grieving on the other and thinking no one's going to be good enough, no one's going to be as good as my when we idealize, I think this is so common when we idealize people who died and there are certain things about my late husband I was thinking of just like there's never going to be anyone who's going to fit in those categories as well as he did because it's true.
Monika (43:39.83)
as you're saying, that shift into thinking, well, but maybe he does have something to offer. It's different, know, something seems to work, but that shifts the conversation into a different place. Very much in touch with reality of your situation, his situation. It's not just kind of like, you know, all about fantasy about having this ideal.
relationship, I hear you speaking about, you know, actually looking at things in a very, rational way, but like real way, like, what is this person bringing? Why am I bringing, you know, it sounds very, it sounds like something that has potential, you know, like you're considering this person rather than just, you know, trying to pretend like
you know, he's just going to fill in the empty space, which is not a good recipe for a relationship. Yeah, the empty space thing resonates with me because I think that is what I'd possibly previously been doing. But there was something more, I don't know, co -constructing togetherness. And I think possibly because we were, you know, our parents, our children are of similar ages and
I think there was a connection there so that we could connect with being, you know, solo parents from that point of view and the challenges of that, relationships with them that was connecting. But yeah, I think there was a kind of a sense of giving things a chance, but in a way that, yeah, was considered. I think we were both considering it and...
he was seeking something as well. It's the two sides, isn't it? It's that kind of, yeah, we're going on a few dates and this doesn't kind of, it's kind of whatever comes of this is fine. And actually underneath that kind of sense of really looking for the security of being in a relationship and both having lost that, but lost it in different ways. And both with baggage, the children, past relationships, this...
Monika (46:00.066)
that element and I wonder how that, what kind of challenges were there, you know, for both of you? Yeah, I think the kind of, there was a similarities that our children of similar ages and then the differences. So the differences I think were, became challenges initially in that, so he would have his children, obviously he shared care with his, with his ex -wife, so he would have his children for
you know, half of half of Fortnite. And then the other half of his Fortnite would be free as a, you know, a single man living a single life and all that that brings. was deeply back to rage and envy, kind of really envious of that, you know, that kind of all this luxury of, you know, lots of time that you get to yourself and being able to do, you know, of what I didn't have. fact that he then
had this time, he would then come and spend it with me and actually quite quickly kind of with us and our relationship developed with him coming and spending lots of time. So I was living in you know, in a different county, there was two hours geographically between us. So he would have that free time. actually made our relationship get off the ground really, spending time together. Obviously then that then was the challenge of how do I then manage that with my
children and I remember my daughter really not liking him and she will say this. She likes him now.
But he's quite different, very different from her dad and very different as a man. And she really didn't like him at the beginning. that then, how do I then, what does that mean for me? What does that mean for our relationship? Brilliantly, he didn't react. There were a few comments at the beginning made directly to him in front of him.
Monika (48:08.332)
and he just let it wash over him. And I thought, hmm, there's something about that, about he's then going back to creating that space. He's already recognizing that he doesn't need to react to that. You know, we're already working together, even though we're not yet an established couple, but we've got that way of working with each other. Because he could have got angry, could have said he could have, but he didn't. And that was really...
you know, it meant a lot to me at beginning and it was respectful. Yes. So he made room for your daughter's, your children's grief, not just yours, but their grief, presumably because it was very hard for her to see this other man taking up, potentially taking up her father's space in the house. you know, I mean, we do have a plan to invite your daughter onto the podcast and hopefully have her to
to talk about her experiences, which I think will be incredibly valuable if we get to that point. But it's so interesting to see that different perspective, because as you're saying, it's not just your relationship with this new person, it's the past relationship with your late husband, your children developing relationships with the new partner. And this is all very fresh, very new, very testing.
you know, of each other. I mean, it sounds like quite a mind field, to be honest. It is. And I don't think you can really, I mean, maybe people do and maybe it is possible, but I just don't think it would be possible. I think I had this idea of, you know, we would, you know, test out, see if we work together and then our relationship would start and then we would introduce the kids and then it would all happen kind of sequentially in a nice
ordered process. And of course, it had to be everything developing all at once and messy, you know, and I think I kind of realized that, you know, we, everybody also in our, you know, blended family, whatever that means, has, you know, everybody has different relationships with each other, which sounds really obvious, but I think it's easy to overlook. Everyone's at a different place. They come with a different
Monika (50:35.81)
pre -existing relationship with that parent that you're then joining. And then everybody develops relationships within each other, within the family. But it's really, really difficult to try and, I think maybe you think you can kind of manage or control it when actually it's kind of like this feels a little bit like being on an out of control roller coaster, particularly at beginning. But things settle and...
relationships build, but they need time and lots of these and the difference between it. So you mentioned about my daughter who was, you know, older, a teenager, you know, going through all the, you know, I mean, that's enough of a challenge, isn't it? Finding yourself, let alone your mum, just a chap coming through the door, know, or throwing, having all of that thrown at you. And then also sit, it was COVID, you know.
She thought she was going to be exams and didn't end up sitting exams. All of that was going on. So all of that uncertainty and yet, you know, somehow navigating, you know, navigating that together and, you know, make it work. So she, she obviously had much more of a felt relationship experience with her dad because she was eight. She was, it was a week before her eighth birthday when he died. But obviously my son was only two and a half. He doesn't really have, you know, overt.
memories of his dad. So actually, you know, a new chap being around and the ability to develop a, you know, what's now become a stepfather relationship when you've not had a father particularly in your life for most of your childhood is something he really latched onto. my friends would say, isn't it lovely for Sam to have a guy around in the house? And I'm like, yeah, it is. you know, is that how real is that? How
you know, going back to transparency, is that something that actually we're kind of, you're comparing again, aren't you comparing between is our relationship strong enough or is it, am I just looking for, you know, a father figure here? Yeah. But also what you're saying about what is that role, you know, how do you define that role within the context of loss and of this new man just moving in?
Monika (52:55.798)
you know, and how do you then, as you're saying, you know, it's a good, thing to have a male role model in the house with the children, but does it what does it mean? They're, you know, replacing, you know, the father, what they might be thinking about that, you know, all sorts of ideas and concepts and, you know, their own difficulties with that, which, as we say, we're probably gonna get a chance to talk about that another time, but
There's just so much in there that it's not just about dating and, you know, the relationship. It's so much more complex and there's so many more angles to look at this issue and, know, the practicalities, as you said, of blending two families together, but also, you know, your own feelings about that, you being in a different role and to the children.
Gouth children, presumably that has its own challenges and then him being a stepfather to your children. then what it's just, just even thinking about that is just so much to consider. And as you're saying, a very messy and complicated process. And I think most people just expect that it should be working, but it's I think for by definition.
there will be conflicts, there will be times when it feels impossible or very challenging and I wonder what makes it work, what made it work for you and your family. And, you know, that didn't sometimes doesn't work out for others or, you know, because as you're saying, it's not that straightforward. It's not at all. I think the is it, you know, is the interesting thing to think about because it's particularly within that.
you know, a family, there's always going to be conflict and accepting that's okay and not wanting to airbrush that out. Because there's this idea of going back to kind of a blended family and people are quite idealistic, aren't they, about how families should be. you know, you see it, people's expectations around Christmas, you know, you've got all the decorations in the shop since, I don't know, September, and everyone's gearing up for this kind of
Monika (55:14.932)
it's going to be an amazing experience and we have this ideal of everyone sitting around the table and getting on and playing games and you know I don't know about experiences of Christmas are not like that you know there's somebody kind of storming out or having an argument or arguing over you know numbers of pigs in blankets on their plates and you know it reignites you know conflict but that's a necessary part of it.
And it's just, think it's the same kind of process. And I think particularly Gareth felt this as well of this, we shouldn't be falling out or arguing or having a problem with this or, you know, and actually now we've, I know, I think we've kind of accepted that not, it's not the norm, but that's okay. You know, people, and people won't get on in the way that they do in every other family, you know, relationships are difficult and take work and also wax and weighing as well.
And children are changing all the time too. And they've got their own challenges, going to new schools, sitting exams, finding out who they are, getting into relationships themselves. I think dealing with that, letting that kind of roll out. And if you've got the strength of the relationship between you, that's what's important. can then, we can always come back together of an evening or during the day and say, yeah, what's going on here?
checking in with each other. talk about that a lot, you know, and we've kind of developed a way of if there's something going on, we kind of like give each other a look or talk about it later. And, you know, and that again, it's that kind of togetherness. but and in some ways, although there were challenges within this blended family, it also accelerated, I think, the intimacy and the togetherness, the pace at which that grew, it grew very quickly. It's the other side, it's a double -edged sword, isn't it? It's kind of it was challenging. actually, when we found that we could
work through it together with minimal conflict between the two of us as time has gone on. But yeah, the difficulties of telling kids off, who has a right to do that? And what does step -parenting mean? And what does it mean? It means something different for him than it does for me. He's a step -parent to two children whose dad is no longer here. I'm a step -parent.
Monika (57:34.392)
to his children and who they spend half of their time with. And obviously that relationship continues. And how do we then manage that together? And I think what I hear you saying, Sarah, is something about having very honest conversations and naming those conflicts rather than avoiding them and kind of hoping for the best, which is the kind of our role in any relationship, I suppose. But it's so important that we don't shy away from addressing those conflicts.
and actually trying to make sense of the two sides of the story, because there are such extreme versions of you know, what it's like when you grieve, you know, a loss, as you're saying the children, your children who don't have a father and lose this set of children who still have both parents, but they also gain the stepmother. So this this this, it's such a complex
and difficult, I think area to requires, I think, a lot of sensitivity around addressing these things and understanding those behaviors that emerge. And those conflicts that are going to be there, you know, undoubtedly, like it cannot happen without conflicts. But then the other side, which you mentioned, it just that it brings so much
I think willingness, what I hear from you is that there is willingness on both sides and that kind of wish to create something meaningful, which I think when you deal with loss, think you do have that other perspective that life is so valuable and has to be cherished. And I wonder how much of that definitely kind of resonates with me and my personal life that you kind of think about certain conflicts or difficulties that maybe might be
you know, upsetting, might have been upsetting for you some years ago, but now looking back after all those losses, I think that changes the perspective and I wonder whether that was also true for you, that it kind of shifts the dynamic and certain things just are not as important as they used to be. You can let go of things and make room for something more important in life. I definitely feel that it does make you
Monika (59:54.646)
Yeah, necessarily you see things with a different through a different lens. And I'm definitely a much, much more kind of accepting and tolerant. Maybe Gareth wouldn't agree with that. I think this and that's also been helpful in terms of when I think in the early days of after Rory died, obviously I was that person I was also half of that relationship.
And whilst I still am, I'm also, I've changed a lot. So when I think back to, you know, that Sarah, that's a different Sarah to this Sarah. And, and I also, you know, think about, because another relationship, which is, you know, interesting is the one between Gareth and Rory, you know, my two partners who have never met, who'll never meet. And how
you know, how they actually would really get on and keeping those memories alive. So I would then talk with Gareth about, we don't talk about Rory every day. But obviously I think about him every day and so did Lola and Sam. And I would always make a point of saying to Lola and Sam, your dad would have been proud, or your dad is proud, keeping that memory. And it's interesting, I think it kind of speaks volumes really, but.
I was looking for a photograph on our shared drive and I was looking for a photograph a couple of weeks ago and I stumbled across kind of obviously all of our old photographs and little videos and it's in those videos when you can hear the voice and it kind of, you're back there in that moment. I'm that Sara then. And I was listening to the videos and there was one, I think it was about Christmas and I was kind of absorbed by it but in an affectionate.
way, not in a sad way, because always in a sad way, but you know, not in an upset way. And I was just appreciating it. So they've found memories. Yes, it was so lovely to re -experience those memories. It's a bit like when I don't know whether you get this, but when your friends kind of who knew you, talk about him and will say, it's so nice to hear people talk about him, his name and the things that used to do and he's still there. Yeah.
Monika (01:02:22.902)
And so I was watching these videos with this mindset and Gareth came in and was saying, what are you doing? And I said, I'm watching these videos. And I said, watch this. It's kind of, you know, and I turned around and he was in absolute floods of tears. And he was like, I just, and he was overwhelmed with that feeling. And I think, yeah, I was fine with it, you know, but he was kind of re -experiencing that.
relationship differently and my relationship and he was relating to it differently. We talk about Rory and perhaps it feels a little bit more remote for him. Probably it has to. He's in relationship with me now. But there was something about that connection that actually he was in that moment too, which was sad and lovely. Just such a wonderful...
Yeah, such a I'm thinking such a wonderful way that he can grieve with you and make that room and I can definitely relate to my experiences of my partner now that he it's wonderful when they can make that space for your loss and not feel threatened by it, but actually, you know, think and relate to and I always think that they would get on really well together and and part of me even though it's obviously
counterintuitive, but it's like, what a shame they've never met. you know, and they would have liked each other. And it's, it's, it's a weird concept to get your head around when you make, think, I think the kind of the summary of today's rich conversation we've had is, is something about, you know, making room for those multiverses of relationships and allowing them to coexist, run and then trying to
push them out of our minds and replacing them, which is not a solution that will last. And I think what you have heard you saying today, Sarah, is that the recipe for a successful or kind of workable relationship after loss involves those kind of attempts and really hard work that is put into making things work, making room and...
Monika (01:04:39.982)
and sharing this space and acknowledging those complexities that naturally emerge. And yeah, I've really enjoyed just reflecting on all that and noticing how many similarities we've had in our journey. And I really hope that resonates with, and I'm sure it does with so many of our listeners, thinking about just how messy it's meant to be messy. just getting on with the messiness is what makes it work.
and makes it last, I suppose. And yeah, there's so much more we could say about this. But I just wanted to thank you for today, Sarah. It's been wonderful having you. And I'm sure we will get you back at some point. There's way more to talk about. sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I've really loved it, too. I think this kind of that's why, you know, I jumped at the opportunity when you spoke of it, because I kind of, you know, going back to those years ago, I would have I would really have it would really
you know, helped and resonated with me to have heard this conversation and to think. I was always thinking, what will the future hold and will there be a, you know, where will I end up and what will happen? And almost wanted to be there ahead of time. And you've got to, you do have to let it happen and you've got to create the space and believe that you can because you can. Yes. Well, thank you for today.
Monika (01:06:06.744)
Thank you for listening in. I hope you found it useful. Please stay in touch by subscribing to my podcast and leaving a review on your preferred platform to help other widows grieve and live. Join us next week for yet another stimulating conversation.
