Monika (00:00.715)
you
Welcome to a guide to afterlife, your go -to podcast for the young and widowed. This is your weekly space to help you live through grief. I'm your host, Dr. Monica Wieliczko, psychologist and your fellow widow. I'm bringing psychological skills to boost your resilience and help you make room for life while you grieve. Listen in to insightful conversations with grief experts and those touched by a profound loss. Together, we challenge the way people think about grief.
offering hope of life after loss. Expect honest stories of loss and creative ways to overcome grief challenges. We tackle common widowhood issues such as relationships, parenting, dating and social isolation. Each episode gives you access to hand -picked resources and tips on difficult emotions, upsetting symptoms, where to seek support and how to help children grieve. Join the conversation and become a part of the Grief Revolution.
So welcome to Guide to Afterlife, Lola. It's really good to have you here in person. Today's conversation is part two of a series about relationships after loss. What I really mean by that is whatever relationships you've had after significant loss, but also how your relationship with the person you've lost might have changed after some years have passed. So that's the scope.
really for today to alert our listeners why you're here. As I said, this is the second part. The first episode was about your mum and your mum came to talk to me about her experiences of loss and of your dad and how that affected her but also how it affected
Monika (01:54.808)
her future relationships and at the end we thought, it be really interesting to hear the perspective of a child, you know, what that was like for you and seeing that other perspective. So it didn't take too long for her to actually ask you and hopefully you agreed to volunteer your time and allowing this incredibly valuable perspective of, well, now an adult child, how...
I suppose how the loss of your father impacted you, but also I suppose looking back what it was like for you, how it changed you. Well, thank you for having me. So I have quite a lot of sensory memories. Like there's some very specific things I remember, like he had this blue jumper that he'd wear like all the time. Like that's one of the things when I picture him, he's wearing this very specific.
blue jumper and I remember lying in bed with him in my mouth and I remember like the feeling of that blue jumper and weirdly specific things like that. Again I don't have loads of memories from it because I think I was about seven when he passed away so I don't think anyone remembers loads from them particularly if you've been through kind of a traumatic experience but I do also remember when he got sick
he had these drinks that he was given to put on weight and I remember the taste of these because I called them milkshakes and I obviously desperately wanted one of these special drinks that he had and I remember how those tasted but there's not loads there otherwise. There's kind of bits and bobs, maybe days but I don't really remember him kind of picking me up from school or things like that because I don't think that happened loads because of...
things that were going on. But slowly more things come back and looking at photos and things like that. It does help, but there's not loads there. I feel like what you're saying about those sensory memories, like obviously the child's brain functions differently to an adult brain, so what you were probably focused on is exploration of the world around you, the taste, different flavours, different...
Monika (04:07.79)
tell us and describing is that kind of world of a child, how a child would remember anything from those little details rather than the bigger picture of what might have happened. And what I hear is all those gaps that get filled up with those photos and conversations. Now when you're an adult, how old are you now? So I'm 20 now. 20, yeah. So it's been quite a long time.
almost twice as long you've lived now. Obviously for almost 14 years, 13 years. And you were seven, so you spent the first seven years of your life with your dad. So that's quite a striking image. I don't know what that evokes in you, but I was just thinking that time, the passage of time and what that does to your memories, but also how different you might remember things now or...
Yeah, so there's so much there. It's such a rich description what you just gave us about you, your dad, what you were left with and the passage of time, I suppose. I was wondering what kind of picture of your dad did you manage to build up from those photos and those conversations with your family and people who knew him? You know, I wonder how much that influenced.
That picture of him now in comparison to one was, I don't know, some years ago. I wonder what that gave you. I think it definitely influenced it. I mean, there's a lot of things that people have said something to me and it's like vaguely come back, like even just a tiny bit. And, you know, the people around me, especially my mum, have done a really good job, you know, painting the picture of like...
you know, just how lovely he was. It's difficult not being able to remember that. I remember a little while ago, my mum has like a hard drive with like all of our old photos and things like that on. And I remember she played a video from it and I heard his voice and I got quite upset because I couldn't remember his voice. It was quite alien to me. And that can be difficult, not remembering things like that. But I think
Monika (06:31.362)
The people around me have always done a really good job of demonstrating what he was like, you know? So holding that for you, holding that memory outside of, if you like, outside of your brain, outside of your mind, and preserving it for you so that you could kind of incorporate it, even though, as you're saying, it might not be your memory, I think you can tell that this is not your memory as such. And when that kind of video comes up,
and you can hear his voice. Yeah, that must be quite a strange moment of realization that, obviously your mum was there, you were possibly there. I don't know if they were in the video or... I think so, yeah. Which was also weird. I think it's difficult because he kind of... died in that period, kind of, you know, early 2000s -ish where we had technology.
but it wasn't as in use as it currently is. So we have photos and videos, obviously, but there's not excessive amounts of them as there would be. example, if someone's relative passed away more recently, I think people tend to at least have a lot more photo and kind of video evidence of them to look back on. they like that or not, I don't know.
but I think that's something that's a bit different because I have those photos and videos but there's not an excess of them. They exist but I've seen all of them. There's a finite amount that he exists on that screen. I could be looking through my phone and find hundreds of videos of the same person. I could probably find a new video every day. So that's a bit difficult, especially because he was quite into technology. And I know that he would have
He'd be amazed at what we could do now. I think about that sometimes. One of those weird things that comes up when you're like setting up like a new phone or something. I've always done that in my family because my mum didn't massively know what was going on. So it kind of felt to me, I kind of took on that role of I'll sort out the new technology, don't worry about it. So that kind of, you can identify with what he brought to your world, that kind of...
Monika (08:55.722)
interest or capacity to be in touch with technology. It sounded like you were smiling when you were describing this, like it's almost like I don't know if it is a proud moment or like a really something you can connect with in yourself when you think about how good he was with technology or how amazed he would have been. Yeah, definitely. I think it's one of those things, I know if it's exclusive to losing a parent when you're younger, but...
I often feel like I have this need to be like him. And like, I'll eat something, my mum will be like, yeah, like your dad really liked those. And I'll be like, well, I must like this food because I need to have that connection to him, you know. I sometimes struggle with that a little bit because my brother looks like identical to him. So he gets it a lot more than I do. And I get told I got my height from him. My brother's like this spitting image of him. So I tend to find other ways to do that through kind of
food like brown sauce, he really liked brown sauce. I didn't like it at first and I've just kind of Pavlov dogged myself to like it because I was like, well I must, you know. yes. So such a need to have a piece of him in you. What I'm hearing perhaps is that kind of difference between what's yours individually separate from him and what's shared with him, what you've managed to take in.
I suppose. I think it's such a difficult situation because unless you get that help from your mum or the people who knew him, it's very difficult to assess it yourself. So you're constantly relying on other people to help you with this process, which kind of makes me think about the role of parents and other people in facilitating this grieving journey. I mean, it still comes up now, my mum will.
mentioned something that he liked and that'll be like, I had no idea, you know, there's this level of almost assumed knowledge where it's, you know, my mum probably assumes that I know all of these things about my dad, but they just, I mean, either I was told or forgot, or it just kind of never got to me. But I think that's nice sometimes learning something new about like a person who, you know, nothing new is happening to anymore. And just kind of thinking about
Monika (11:16.718)
that particular age group when you were seven and your brother is younger than you, right? he? Yes, I can't remember. He was probably either one or two. We've got a five -year age gap. So he was much younger. So he probably, I think it's safe to say that he probably remembers very little of any memories there, I don't know. Yeah, which is difficult because sometimes there's this need to kind of quantify grief and be like, well,
I'm grieving more than you. I deserve it more. And I find it difficult sometimes a little bit with my brother because I'm like, well, you know, you were a baby. But he looks like him. Exactly. It's so difficult. But it just means that even he has a different journey to me. You know, despite losing the same parent, we will still and continue to have a completely different journey with that grief. Yes. And also, I was just thinking that
experience between the two of you as siblings and what you got from your dad, what you didn't. I think it's difficult because where I was older, you know, when my dad passed, I felt the need and wanted to support my mum in a way that sometimes meant becoming more of a parent figure to my brother because it was just kind of, you know, I didn't want to.
not inconvenience my mum further, you know, I wanted to support her. sometimes that meant taking care of my younger brother, which means that I think we have a bit more of a, not less of a sibling relationship, but I felt at times like I was more in the parent role than as another sibling. They both lost a parent. There's a gap, isn't there? Yeah. I was talking to my partner recently and it even manifests in like little ways. Like I...
always used to sit in the passenger seat, like when we went in a car, whereas traditional families are four, it's always kind of mum and dad in the front passenger seat, kids in the back. But I think even little things like that, yeah, I sit in the front, hang out with directions. It kind of changed the dynamic a little bit, you know. So you had to take on some of those roles, which were obviously, I mean, like in any family system, what happens when one person
Monika (13:34.242)
dies or leaves the family for various reasons. It could be divorce, it could be anything. That leaves a gap that needs filling up for the system to be able to function again. And that means that I suspect many of those chores and responsibilities and roles were reassigned to your mum or other people. But as you're saying, maybe sometimes invisible role that children pick up when there is that gap, as you say, literally move to a different...
position in the family. And I definitely wouldn't feel like it was a sign to me, but much more that I wanted to do that role and I wanted to help out my mother. And we had like my grandmother living very close by as well. I have a lot of memories from when I was younger, kind of, I think my relationship with her definitely grew because of that absence of a parent, because she also tried to fill that gap. It was both of us trying to help out as much as we could.
But that paints this really quite positive picture of, I suppose, this willingness to work together as a family, as you're saying, to help out your brother, your grandmother stepping in, sure there are other people who somehow are trying to support the system. And that kind of sense that this made sense to you, as you're saying, it's not like you were landed with, which is often, I think, the case that if one parent is struggling,
that there is this experience of having to rescue them or sometimes children take too much on themselves. But I think you're describing something quite different, which is that obviously the loss was overwhelming. Yeah, definitely. And I think it can sometimes feel overwhelming. But I also think to some extent the nature of it either
whether it played into my personality or made my personality, don't know. But I am quite an independent person and I'm quite, you know, if I'm given something to do, I'm quite happy to get on with it. And I think to some extent, it played to my strengths, helping out. And I was very happy to, it didn't mean it didn't always cause conflict, but also, you know, when my dad passed away, was my mum, my brother, who was, I think, one.
Monika (15:58.764)
You we had two cats and a dog. I mean, you couldn't not fill that space, do you know what I mean? Because there was so much to be doing. But also, I'm very thankful for having had the cats and the dog around. Because I think they made it. And the dog that we had at that point, she was my dad's idea to get. My mom and dad came over to the UK to pick her up. She kind of really helped. I felt like he lived on a bit.
in her. She passed away last year, which was really, really tough because she kind of felt like she was a part of him. yeah, as much as they posed issues, I think they, you know, they really helped and I think that's really important. Yes, and obviously they are members of the family and they remember him. Yeah. Really quite a bizarre concept to get your head around that perhaps those animals they help.
onto those memories and they, because we know that, dogs, they can recognise their owners years and years after, even if they're separated for many years. So they be able to preserve those memories and how incredibly important that this happens and that you have access to those shared experiences even though they're not explicit. I mean, I remember when I got my dog, it was quite late into my
late husband's illness. I think she probably lived about, she was about six months, seven months, point at which he passed away. And it was really strange when we got her. I knew that this dog's gonna live longer than him. And that kind of experience of having something together was problematic. think he didn't, I think I remember at the beginning, he didn't really want to get that dog because there was another relationship that was brought into.
the picture that would have been lost. So I really pushed for the dog because like you just said, I knew instinctively that I had to hold on to something really important and we didn't have children. So it was like a red child. So eventually when she arrived, it just it was one of those the only positive aspects of day -to -day life, which was so incredibly valuable.
Monika (18:21.518)
because we would get her to the hospital, she would get anywhere, the hospice to the hospital, to any shop. She would just suddenly found her way into an impossible situation and she thrived in it. So she was that kind of perfect therapy dog for us. I can relate to what you're saying about that kind of capacity to hold on to those memories through the presence of the animal and having that kind of support system in place. And then when they...
die. Yes, I think what you're saying is that there's a part of your father that died with the dog. It's really difficult I think because having lost a parent, obviously I knew it was going to be difficult when she died, dog, but to some extent I thought I've been through this with a person, it will be fine, but I would honestly say it was equally as hard losing her as it was him.
whether that's because of the connection, but I was quite astounded by how much it brought back. I was really quite surprised because I don't think I expected it to affect me as much as it did. In some ways, I wonder not to minimize the role of the dog because I can tell you straight away that if my dog died right now, I'd be completely devastated and sometimes it's...
Easier, think, to grieve pets or be more explicit about it than it is with people because it's to laugh because they're just so caring and giving. But I'm thinking that this is obviously your adult loss, like when you're more developed cognitively. sometimes I wonder whether this could be just another way of experiencing that loss and those elements of the loss that you're grieving for both of them. That's why it's so...
pronounced because it's not uncommon actually for people to experience another loss as more significant in some ways because it's the accumulation of all those losses that whenever we grieve a new loss it brings us back to the previous losses and I don't think we can ever escape that experience because it's just, it's there, it's all connected and we just...
Monika (20:40.12)
don't think there's another way unless you block it completely and pretend like it didn't happen. I think you're completely right about it being a loss in my adulthood because I felt like I not processed it easier but I felt able to process it a lot more than I was with my dad at the time at least. I think we still talk about my dog and we're able to talk about her quite easily largely and it's really nice to have that whereas
kind of when my dad died, whether, I don't remember it as much, but it was, I at least kind of wasn't able to talk about it properly, even until kind of a couple of years ago. Quite a difficult topic to bring up anyway. Even with friends, it was difficult to kind of navigate and talk about without kind of skirting around it. What do you think made it possible then for you to be able to talk?
about him now, about the loss, not in, but the loss with other people. I'm not entirely sure. I think time has made all the difference as much as it can. think reflecting on it, you know, that makes it a lot easier and having time to kind of sit with that feeling and, you know, choose your words to some extent. I think it's also difficult talking about him when I don't have a lot of memories of him, because therefore a lot of what I'm talking about is in context with
his death. There's not much I can talk about before then because I don't have loads of memories of him then. So kind of anything that I bring up is therefore kind of innately linked with his passing, which I think is difficult. Whereas I can talk about Jess, my dog, and I can talk about her when she was alive and like a lot of the things that I remember about her then. Whereas where I don't have as many of those memories of my dad, it's kind of difficult.
to talk about, you know? Yes, I mean that makes perfect sense and to be honest I haven't thought about that this way before, that this is a very unique form of loss, especially when it happens so early in your life. I suppose the good thing about working through grief is that once you acknowledge those painful feelings and work to some extent through them, you then...
Monika (23:01.142)
are able to access those good memories, the love, those lovely times that outweigh the bad times in a way, that they lost the pain of it. But what you're saying is that, suppose that's what makes the whole experience so valuable and important, but actually you were against something much harder, meaning that you had to construct those memories or construct the image of your father and there wasn't that.
good thing available to him. So it's just that the absence, which is in some ways, I think much harder than having those memories, like you said, with your dog and being able to hold on to them and grab them and keep them in, you know, because that's what often happens with griefs, that we kind of just decide what we want to keep, what we want to let go of, but how could you do that? So in some ways, I think what you're describing is difficulty with assimilating the good things and working through.
and having a kind of internal image of that loss, which, yes, it's a much harder task, which I don't think we quite appreciate. Because I think often with children, I think we kind of assume that they cop well, maybe because they don't have men, which I think there's a fantasy that maybe, they haven't really been affected by it, look how well they're doing, because children don't grieve in the same way, at least on the outside. It doesn't look like they might be upset in that moment, but...
It's just the way their brain works. It's not quite as visible sometimes, might manifest in different ways. Yeah, definitely. think, I mean, I remember at least putting on quite a brave face, but also to some extent not being conscious of that when I was younger. I mean, I remember talking to my mum about it and being like, was I I off school for ages, like after it happened? And she was like, no, you're off school for like
weeks, which I think in the grand scheme of things, considering what had happened, wasn't very long. Which really surprised me because I had kind of invented in my head that like, yeah, I must have missed loads of school because that must have been really difficult. But I think at the time it was just kind of, I don't know, I think as a child, it happens and you just can't process it enough in order to understand and take that time that you need, you know. I don't
Monika (25:22.912)
remember the funeral, but I know that I went, which I think was quite brave of me at the time. But you know, it would definitely be different had that loss happened now, because I know that I would have had a much different reaction to it, at very least in terms of it affecting education and things like that. So I think it definitely is processed differently, like you were saying. And also that some of those tasks involved in grief, they kind of get pushed.
forward into a different stage of your life. Like you're gonna have to wait a bit longer to be able to be in touch with some of the things or be able to talk about it, like you said, know, something you've been recently, relatively recently, you've been kind of finding ways to maybe communicate certain aspects of your life. And that's, it's necessary to say that that's right or wrong, I think it's just, you know, what happens with me if it's...
It's a never -ending journey and as we change, something in us changes, a relationship with grief. I suppose I was thinking how those experiences I suppose affected your relationship with people around you, but also how, like I'm thinking about your mum or your brother growing after your father passed away. You spoke a little bit about how you were all changed in the family.
but I wonder, like on a very kind of personal level in terms of your experiences of, obviously you might not know that just yet, but I'm just wondering whether there's anything you've noticed that you feel looking back that significantly changed the way you've been approaching relationships or how those relationships, particular relationships were influenced by the loss of your father. I think it's definitely deeply impacted them, especially
I mean with my mum, obviously. But I think I've only realised recently again that we have a really close relationship and it's only through talking to friends and other people have I realised that we have a really close relationship because I think I assumed that a lot of people had a really close relationship with their parents. I think that especially the specific closeness that we have is quite single parent specific, really. I think it's...
Monika (27:48.416)
It's also changed my perspective on relationships. I think anyone kind of experiencing a loss can relate to the idea that even just having a different attitude to life, you know, like nothing, nothing is permanent. And I don't ever, I always say what I mean and things like that. Like I've never felt the need to dart around topics or anything like that. It's just, if you want to have a relationship with someone.
you need to be proactive and forge that and maintain it because at some point they're not going to be there, you know, whenever that is. And I think losing anyone close to you, like really teaches you that. And it's a difficult lesson to learn, but it's also one that's worthwhile to learn because I do feel like I can forge deeper relationships if I want to because I know the value of that relationship now. Because you know what it's like.
to experience loss and not having imagined what it means to lose them. It's a kind of bittersweet outcome, isn't it? On the one hand, it's terrible loss that is saying it affected you deeply and deprived you of many experiences growing up. But it also kind of is a real gift that comes with that awareness when it's saying integrated.
you've tried to process things connected with that loss, that then suddenly something really important comes out, which is that awareness that time isn't permanent, that we are going to die, and that the loss is inevitable, and you can grab life, because it's there. If you want something, I mean, there something really powerful, the way you phrased it, you know, if you really want something, just take it and try.
work on it. That's really quite a powerful way of thinking and very unusual for, well, I'm going to say someone your age initially, but then I thought no, I think in general. Well, sadly, most people never reach that stage of thinking that, you know, life is now and we have to live it. So that's a huge gift. Definitely. And I think it's really difficult.
Monika (30:12.216)
to get there. As much as a gift it is, it can be really difficult to think like that because to some extent you're accepting the semi -permanence of life and also that those relationships are what you make of it, whether that's good or bad. I regret relationships that I haven't had with people and maybe friendships I haven't put as much work into because they aren't permanent.
There's something about having this capacity where I hear you saying that you can reflect and regret and think, okay, what do I do about this in the future? I think there's something about, as you're saying, really hard work actually. I call it gift, but really, it's really, hard to get there. And that perspective which really you shouldn't have had at this age.
it really shouldn't have happened so early in your life. So it's a very difficult thing to get your head around and I don't think you could ever get there on your own in isolation. Like you said, we're talking about all the support you were getting from people around you, around to do with your loss but also how long it takes to get to that place. And you mentioned that you're in a relationship with someone now.
which, gosh, that must be also quite an interesting one that they kind of must be somehow connected with your father. Like it's obviously, I'm thinking more psychologically, obviously, from that perspective, but that's experience of your loss, do you think plays up or kind of comes up in the relationship? Well, it's difficult because my partner's a woman, so it's not really.
kind of as father figure related, but also, I don't know, you could say that the absence of that father figure to some extent is kind of maybe seen more in the relationship, just in terms of there's not many men in my life that have held that kind of importance apart from him. You know, it kind of really stands out therefore, because there haven't been as many relationships like that and probably won't be, which I think kind of
Monika (32:38.402)
leads on to then the interesting relationship with my mum's new partner because there aren't that many older men in my life like that. Yeah. And I completely get where you're going with this because it's almost, I think what I was trying to say about the partner, the kind of having a partner in your life, it's, think for me, it's more the question of who is that other side that is supporting you and how the experience of the loss, my impact.
I suppose the ability to then invest in a new relationship because it's another person that you love, that you're in relationship with, you're allowing into your life. And I'm saying maybe it happened before, but I'm kind of curious how it kind of changes the dynamic because I'm now in a different relationship and I can see how losing, for example, my late husband, how that's impacted in many different ways and impacted...
my capacity to just kind of find someone else or be with someone else because there's always this, on the one hand, the fear that they might be gone one day or I wonder whether that's somewhere there for you in one way or another, whether that is in the picture, maybe not, I don't know, it's just more of the question whether that could be a factor in how well we're able to invest in something.
I think it's difficult because I wouldn't say as much in that capacity that it's involved in my relationship, probably more in terms of kind of how long it's been for me, but also the nature of the loss being a parental figure when I was younger. But I do find, I think the only way that I would say that it kind of comes into it is that it means that we grew up very differently and obviously people, know, everyone grows up differently, but it's a completely
completely different way of growing up and it means that you have just different, not values, but different ideas on even how things should be and things like that. again, it kind of like it was like with the car thing that we were talking about, they're very used to sitting in the back of the car. Just, you know, it's one of those weird menial things. But when we went on a road trip recently with their family and I was sat in the back and I was like, I feel like one of the kids.
Monika (35:01.906)
which is weird because I don't usually feel like one of the kids in lot of scenarios. But yeah, I think it just means that we grew up really differently, which sometimes, you when you're trying to forge, we live together, so like a household together, you know, we've seen it with living with my mum's partner as well, like you're bringing two different households together with two different sets of rules and how things should be. I think that's difficult when sometimes when you grew up,
so differently really because you have different ideas especially when like my family you know I grew up in a very matriarchal environment so I find that really important but yeah I wouldn't say as much in the capacity of kind of struggling to let someone in I would say that a lot more if anything I can be quite open to people because I know about the fragility of these relationships I'd almost rather
open myself up and potentially experience that loss, then not open myself up at all. Yes, and you obviously mention your mums and your relationships and they're just about to get married, is that right? Yes, yeah, yeah, it's in about a month I think. So that's a huge step and obviously there's probably quite a lot to be explored in terms of, you know, how that came about and that life.
without your father and then this new man kind of gradually becomes a figure, like I say, a male figure in your life. I wonder what that was like. It was definitely difficult at first. No one's going to say it wasn't. I think more or less for me, depending on how you see it, because my mum, she didn't date loads of people. This is probably...
this second relationship I remember her having kind of since my dad passed away. There wasn't as much resentment to the idea of her dating because it hadn't been something constant or disruptive throughout my childhood. It's always gonna be difficult to let someone into your inner circle, you know, and it would be difficult, especially I think where I'd taken on some of those kind of parental roles to kind of see those
Monika (37:23.416)
taken away from me to some extent. I mean, we always used to in the evenings, as any family does, we'd sit and watch TV. And I don't know, I would sit next to my mum, I'd make her a cup of tea. That was kind of what what we did. Routine. Yeah. kind of when he came into the kitchen when he would come and stay with us, he would make her a cup of tea and sit with her. And like that, you know, I'm still in the room, we were still all watching TV together. But like, I kind of didn't know for a little while.
where I sat, I think it was difficult kind of reassessing those roles. My mum is a very strong woman. We live in a very matriarchal household. It's not like he started ordering me about. If anything, the reverse. those roles didn't change hugely, but it was just, she had someone else to watch TV with and that was just different at the start. And it wasn't negative or positive because I was doing my A -levels when
he came into our life and I had all of this other stuff to be doing, applying to university. So I'm grateful for him being there and I can look back on it and be grateful for him taking up that role. But it was definitely difficult at the start to kind of relinquish that. Because I suspect that gave you a sense of being important. You know, just thinking about that back seat in the car and then being kind of almost like nominated to seat.
They sit at the front of the car and then suddenly, okay, you're back to the child seat. It's a really good analogy because obviously it happened again when he came into our lives. I was then in the back seat, and it's something you don't really think about, but it was really quite abrupt for me. It was, I'm in the back with the kids now. You know, I wasn't... You were deprived of something important. Yeah, but it was difficult because I was appreciative of him being there.
my mom having someone, but also he was filling up these roles that I was filling and that, right, gave me a sense of kind of importance within the family. I think maybe that kind of helped a little bit then where I went off to university and I'm not as involved in the household day to day. I don't have a place in those roles as much anymore because I don't live there. It's much easier for him.
Monika (39:49.314)
to fill those and I'm much happier for him too. And sometimes those roles can be temporarily disrupted when I go back. Make some room for me now. Yeah. But just I think only fair. You know, what you were describing is this process of renegotiating the experience of making some room for other things like you said, you know, being able then to leave your family home, go to university and maybe focus on yourself a bit more.
because it sounds like you were quite preoccupied with your family and supporting your family. But also, as you're saying, there's something very important about this relationship that your mum was probably more important to you because you just had her. There was no dad in the picture for so long. And she is more important just by definition. Where more is located in her.
been important about that statement that you've just made about just kind of where do you sit, where do you belong, how do you restructure this system which is so new, this new man turns up and know obviously saying that disrupts things. It's always, I can imagine, it must always be a messy and complicated process.
Like you suddenly say, okay, I do this and you do that. We share responsibilities and read in writing, sign. Yeah. And it's difficult because even things like, like having a place at the table and things like that, I still find it weird. I mean, that's in terms of at home, you know, we had a, can't, you everyone has designated, we sit here at the table. No, you don't discuss it, but you know where you sit. And then if he was round for dinner, it was kind of, he was in addition.
you know, to the established order. But even coming from that, I still find it weird when we do go to like a restaurant or something with him asking for a table for four, because there's always been three of us. But it's also weird because until now we haven't fitted into that like nuclear family model. And it's weird fitting into that. It's odd for me like being the, you know, when his kids aren't with us, it's...
Monika (42:14.346)
you know, the two parents and the two kids and we're the little unit because we haven't been that. It's like we were, I don't know, not fighting against that. But, you know, before he was there, I felt, you know, we were almost proving our existence outside of the nuclear family model. Whereas with him there, it's weird fitting into that because we never have from what I remember. Exactly. making an assumption here, a strange
conflicting feeling there somewhere in the background. Who is he? Where does he fit in your mind? What does that do to you as the important nominated adult in the house, but also your father in your mind? mean, there's just so much there that needs to be worked through. then, obviously, his children come into the picture.
So what's he saying? That the whole reconstructed family doesn't quite... It's not easy. I think what I'm trying to say is that it sounds to me like something that really requires quite a lot of work to make room for this to function in one way or another. I think so, definitely. And I think especially when it's been like that for so long, like that was all I remembered was me, my mum and my brother. And I feel like I didn't really...
understand as much how bigger families worked. I think that's something different now as well as being a bigger family going from a smaller than average family to kind of a much bigger family is different. And I wouldn't say, again, positive or negative. It's just like a different experience that has its own quirks. But I think also I kind of like my mum's partner is very
separate from my dad in my head in terms of like male figures in my life but I think that comes a lot from like him coming about again when I went off to university. I think it's another case where my brother would find that completely different because my mum's partner has never like driven me to school or anything like that because I was driving by the time he was in our lives so he never had a role in anything that I was
Monika (44:42.158)
doing like that, you know what mean? He never went to a parents evening or something like that. So how old were you when he kind of became part of your family picture? I don't know exactly which year it was but I think I would have been 17, 17, late, on your childhood really. When you 17 you were practically in that old, just waiting for confirmation from the world that you were...
Yeah, so it's kind of it's definitely different because I think my brother would probably see him more in that capacity. But I feel like it was then difficult, difficult even further to reconcile with where his position was in the family to me, because he was a man in our family, who was not my dad. You know, it was kind of, and he, you know, he was not in any way a father figure to me, but he was important to my mum, he was in our lives, it was
it was difficult and I feel like even like the words for it, there isn't really a word for it to describe it and often I find myself saying my mum's partner when I refer to him I don't know if that will change when they get married I don't know if I will I don't know how I will phrase it because he won't be my dad in any capacity so who is he? yeah but he's married to my mum it's kind of
It's difficult. Yeah, and I just don't really think that there's not an apt word for that because I especially think partner is a load of different things. And even, you know, I don't often say fiance because it doesn't seem particularly not important to me, but it doesn't feel like a label that aptly describes him. maybe that will come when they get married. I don't know. Maybe it will magically appear.
of your childhood when there was just the three of you and in some ways that makes perfect sense that internal model almost like that's what the family is like and that brings up its own challenges when that gets reworked like in some ways like you're reworking that internal image okay so who's this person who's coming in and
Monika (47:08.916)
Where does he fit or how do we make room for that? I wonder whether there are any things that you think helped with this process? Anything that made it easier or the other way around what made it more difficult? I think him getting a dog was the most helpful. I can't lie. When I'm thinking of things that helped, that was a big factor.
Because when he was coming to visit, so was the dog. Man, I can't lie, that was definitely, definitely of exactly what It's the way into my heart. So I don't know, outside of that, was kind of, I think again, it happened at the right time for me to not kind of struggle with the challenging of my role in the household where I was beginning to leave and kind of fly the nest. I think the timing of it was really helpful.
for. I think the way they did it was largely quite positive. think it's always going to be difficult introducing your partner's kids and your partner to your family. Like that's always going to be a difficult thing to do. And I don't think there's a rule book on how to do it. But I think as well, there were, you know, there were things that we bonded over quite easily. Even the dog, you know, like that's, that's so.
you know, anyone can sit there and talk about a dog. That's like a commonality just between everyone. finding those common angles or interests or something you can share is really important. I think it's difficult because there's a balance of finding common interests, but also not feeling like you've been replaced. You want to engage with these people who are coming into your life. But I think it's difficult.
possibly in my scenario, not to feel like they're replacing you if they're too many commonalities, you know? But I think, yeah, commonalities between people, definitely, which can be very difficult with teenagers. But I think that's another thing that's very different about our families coming together is that obviously all the kids were a lot older. When people get divorced when children are young and a father figure comes in quite soon after, it's very much...
Monika (49:30.922)
a merging of two separate households, which is difficult, even in terms of, like I was saying before, like established rules. know that like my mom's partner, like mealtimes are very important to us. That's the kind of, you know, you've been at school, now we sit down and decompress. We eat food together at the table, whereas that didn't happen as much for my mom's partner's family. So it was difficult kind of merging the households and trying to say,
well, this is what we do and hearing that that's not what they do. And it's kind of like, well, where do you go from there? Who compromises? And who, cause someone has to, you know? There's the realities. Everyone does their own thing. And I think you kind of discover that you just have to compromise on different things. You know, we now have meal times altogether, but that was also a journey.
on their side, learning that that's what we do. And as like kind of growing up where my dad wasn't there, and I don't know, maybe this is how it is in kind of the nuclear family model, but me and my brother would always, as I got older, I would cook dinner, and then my brother would clear up after dinner. And it was kind of, we sorted that as much as we could. And kind of when Mom's partner's family came in, it was kind of like, well, who, who clears the plates after dinner? You know, it's like,
How do you distribute the Yeah, and it's difficult because we had a really solid system going and then people come in and they don't mean to but they inevitably disrupt the system because there's different things going on and people are thinking different things and I think the only way a lot of the time to solve it is just talk to people about it. You can easily get through that kind of thing without talking about it. Yes, and avoiding.
avoiding the uncomfortable area that needs addressing. And I think one thing that came to my mind as you were just talking was this thing that you said about the importance of addressing things and saying, getting what you want and fighting for the relationships that are important to you. And that comes with that level of transparency about, well, this is what we do. This is the problem and we need to think about it.
Monika (51:55.328)
rather than just kind of putting it to one side and saying, well, we'll magically solve itself out. Yeah, definitely. And I think my mum kind of having that attitude to life has definitely helped us integrate as much as, know, if integrate is the word you want to use, into kind of a household, I would say, you know, because you need to talk about these things. Otherwise they do just get swept under the rug. And I think
losing someone like that, definitely teaches the value of it and then aids that reintegration when you've got those skills to be able to talk about something that's maybe a bit uncomfortable, maybe just other people aren't even thinking of discussing it, they haven't even thought or maybe we should have a conversation about it. And again, it's just differences in households. Yeah, sometimes you say, bringing the strengths into the table, like you've got some
important qualities and capacity to discuss, to address things into the table. Perhaps they brought something else in, this, what I'm hearing is this kind of really nice way of addressing, really quite wonderful way of addressing difficult or challenging transition, like the new family system or the loss earlier on, in both those scenarios you've described.
people coming together and bringing things in and working together, which is very different, I think, to some of those scenarios that I can imagine lot of people listening are familiar with, which is the kind of disintegration and the difficulty with coming together and working together and putting in effort to make things work. really, obviously you're not...
sugar coating it because you you're very honest with your account of what it was like and how hard it was but I think that's what makes it more real and more relatable I think that this is the reality this situation is difficult you know you don't like certain things we clash at certain points but we talk about it and something eventually comes out of it and that's workable and sustainable
Monika (54:14.486)
I think it's important to say that, you know, I can only look, you know, look back on it fondly. Now, you know, if we'd been having this conversation two years ago, it would have been very different things. And I think it just, shows you that you can get there. And the journey is so individual because households are individual and they're so different. But you know, if
coming together as a household is what you want, which it doesn't have to be. It's possible with compromise, you know, and that's the thing. And with compromise, some people are gonna benefit more than others. you know, it's a difficult process, but I think one that I'm glad to have gone through to some extent. And again, I would say that my perspective is still only almost an outsider looking in to some extent, because where I've gone to university and a lot of the, you know, I've
I've not lived at home where my mum and my partner have been living together because I went off to university and then think it was two, three months later they moved in together. So it's kind of, I haven't fully been part of the process, but I've seen it through chatting with my mum and the times that I do go home. Yeah. Well, it's, think it's incredibly important that we were able to have this conversation and see the trajectory.
you went through and how it kind of, I'm hoping, gave some ideas and some help to people listening to the podcast that it's possible to really reintegrate and work through such traumatic loss and carry on living. So thank you so much for today's conversation. It's been incredibly enlightening and pleasant to know you a bit more and to hear your
incredibly important perspective. Thank you for having me, it's been lovely. Thank you for listening in. I hope you found it useful. Please stay in touch by subscribing to my podcast and leaving a review on your preferred platform to help other widows grieve and live. Check out our show notes for links to helpful resources or go to guidetoafterlife .com to find out more and take part in the Grieve MOT, your first aid course for grief.
Monika (56:39.97)
Join us next Tuesday for yet another stimulating conversation.
