Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (00:01.72)
Welcome to Guide to Afterlife, your life after loss of a life partner. In today's episode, we're talking about grieving brain and my guest speaker is Dr. Johnston. Welcome Amber.
Amber (00:18.645)
to have to be part of this. Thanks for having me.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (00:22.066)
It's lovely to have you here and I was so looking forward to, I suppose, to making sense of what goes on in our brains when we grieve and having your expertise as a neuropsychologist is just so important, I think, in helping us all to understand what happens, not just in the body, but also in the brain, I suppose, as an organ that I think have.
so much to do with processing and thinking and feeling. There's so much that goes on in there. So if you could maybe just say a few things about yourself, what you do and what neuro -psychologists do, that would be great.
Amber (01:04.723)
Absolutely.
So, yes, I'm Dr. Amber Johnston, I am the founder and director of Healthy Mind Psychology. This is a practice that we have in the private space. We do face -to -face and online work, and it is mostly focused around understanding the mind -body connection. So we really specialize in people who have had health conditions or neurological injury or the idea that there is stress response and how that can play an impact
across mind and body. So we feel we're a little bit different because we are really working and helping people stop separating the mind and the brain from the body and the physical functioning. They are one system. They are divided in the medical community. And we're trying to rewrite that narrative and really bring the two concepts back together again, because they are constantly in communication. And it's not even fair to say that because that sounds like two things. They are one system.
meaning that though we need to take care of our body, we need to know how to taking care of our brain will do that and back and forth again. A neuropsychologist, that's, I guess, not everybody has come across that. And that's mostly because neuropsychology traditionally works with people who have had an accident or injury to the brain. And
psychologist does is they come in and they tend to look at the behavior presentation and the clinical picture of somebody following their neurological injury. And we can guide that through testing and through helping people get through their traumas that happen after injury and set their life back up again in rehabilitation. But something that I found really important on my journey was that I felt that there was a lot about how the typical brain works that people don't understand. And it means that they end up facing barriers
Amber (02:58.226)
in life that might be to do with neurological processes, just normal ways that the brain works with the body. But people don't necessarily understand that or recognize how their brain is working. So they get stuck, they have barriers, they get hurdles. And sometimes we just need to know how to work with our brain rather than against it. So it's an interesting topic, I think.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (03:15.244)
Hmm. Yes.
It is an excellent topic and as you said, I was just nodding as you were talking because I thought, well exactly, that's the biggest problem I think we face in psychology, in anything to do with mental health I think, that separation between the physical body, the brain and the mind and the emotions which, as you're saying, it's so essential and so relevant for grief because I think my own experience of grief
has been very, almost like, I think I remember it being like a cognitive impairment or like an altered state of consciousness. I suppose I was thinking that bringing the neuropsychology understanding of the grieving brain would be extremely helpful to many people who come across those physical or cognitive problems
They don't necessarily may be assigned with grief or the impact of grief on our brain and our functioning and how that can cascade down to other parts of our bodies and how we feel, how we process things. So I think that's where I wanted to start really is maybe thinking about.
what really happens in our brains when we experience a loss, a profound loss of life partner. And that's often in the context of either traumatic loss, which is when someone suddenly dies or experiencing, I suppose, someone die, witnessing someone dying or yeah, sometimes it's a prolonged illness that results in death. So yeah, so
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (05:08.258)
What are the, what goes on? Yeah. Tell us, please.
Amber (05:12.544)
Let me start by breaking down something into the most simplistic way that I can. And I want to just give a caveat at the very beginning that the brain is the most complex thing that is known to humanity. So the brain is incredibly, incredibly detailed and complex. And we really, as a whole field, do not understand that much about how our brain is working, even though we know a lot more than we used to. One of the things that
we developed along the way is this idea that there are specific areas of the brain that do specific roles and we know now that that isn't the case that the whole brain is active all of the
But for the sake of simplicity, it kind of helps to put things into a bit of boxes to get a little bit of an understanding as long as, again, we have this caveat that is much, much more integrated all the time and incredibly personalized because the brain is constantly shaped by our experiences that happen as we move through life. So if it's constantly shaped, means the shape, the literal shape of the brain is constantly changing through something called neuroplasticity.
There was a time we didn't think that it changed much after we kind of developed to about 25 or so. And now we know that's not the case. It is always learning, it's always moving. What's great about that is that there's always hope. So even, you know, and I had a 91 year old patient come to me and say, you know, I'm an old dog, can you teach me new tricks? And I'm saying, absolutely. It's tough, because there's a lot of reinforced behaviors. But yes, the brain is plastic. So there's always the possibility of things
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (06:32.046)
Yes.
Amber (06:54.888)
improving or changing or getting better, we can always have hope with that. When we talk about grief,
The big area that seems to be most important in grieving is the fact that the concept of the limbic system becomes heavily on fire. Now, if we think about the brain, most people know what the brain looks like. Starting from down here in the spinal cord, there's an area called the brainstem. And that is just back here. This is our life function. It's what most creatures that have vertebrae are going to have that and it just is what is basic to keep us alive. And if this isn't
working, we really have very little ability to have consciousness or to wait, you're in a very bad state in that sense. And from that, evolutionarily develop this central area that's really, really, they call it deep in the brain, because if you imagine a cone coming up, it's almost like the ice cream that sits on top of a cone in the limbic system. And then there, what you see of a brain is almost like the cover like a like chocolate sauce on top of your ice
So we're talking about the limbic system. So inside the ice cream itself, and that's different than what you see when you're looking at a brain itself. And that's the cortex. So those are the three bits, the brain stem, the limbic system, and the cortex. And we want to distinguish that now as we talk about what's happening. Because the limbic system is where a lot of our emotions are stored. It's our emotional processing center. It's where our stress response is processed. It's where
different chemicals that are necessary or hormones, things that are involved with sleep -wake cycle about us feeling hungry or not, or you know, think and how we process pain. All of these are deep in that emotion center, plus a lot of movements and a lot of chemicals that give us drive and there's a lot of things that are going on in that middle area. And then on top of that is the chocolate sauce on top. That's more about our higher level thinking. That was the
Amber (09:02.836)
to evolve. And this is where a lot of our conscious thinking, our ability to think about our thinking, to be able to be rational and have judgments and make plans and interpret situations given the context we have is that high level thinking that starts to get turned off. And the highly emotional center with all the chemical releasing gets much more activated. So that might begin to start to explain what happens during grieving, our
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (09:16.11)
Mm -hmm.
Amber (09:32.702)
to really think through and comprehend and make decisions and have attention on things and understand rationally. All of that starts to diminish a bit and that high sense of stress and grief and emotional rawness really shoots up and takes over. And a lot of our neurochemicals like serotonin and dopamine, those get dysregulated during this process. So our whole functioning, the way that we think and what's
within our body really gets altered during this grieving process. That was a lot! Does that make sense?
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (10:07.426)
So everything's kind of, yes, yeah, it's almost like everything gets turned upside down. So what it seemed to be in normal functioning state, you kind of have the thinking part of your brain, not always the best idea, but most, in most cases, like you want your cortex to be, yeah, to be there. But that's not really in place, you're saying that the limbic system takes over.
Amber (10:27.8)
That's the middle part.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (10:36.59)
which is really interesting, so you get flooded by those stress hormones.
Amber (10:42.456)
So that's, that's a really important part of this. If we think about concepts of attachment, especially with somebody like a life partner or a parent or child, really close attachments during grief, you know, we are evolutionary creatures that are there for social bonding, we cannot survive without bonding with our tribe. So we were created over time to develop certain chemicals that let us know
if we are in a position where we potentially are going to be kicked out of the tribe. So outside of grief, we have similar stress chemicals that get released when we're embarrassed, when we're feeling like we made a social faux pas.
feel like we're being excluded from a group from, you know, think about being not liked on Facebook or whatever else. We have a stress chemical that gets involved in some areas of the brain activate the same pathways that physical pain get activated with emotional disconnection. So that's another reason why you can see that during grief, you have a huge surge of stress hormones, adrenaline and cortisol.
and then you also can activate the same pain pathways, which is why grief can physically hurt. And this is about attachment and the understanding that there has been a loss of the immediate tribe and the attachment bonds that are part of our what we need to survive.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (12:05.337)
Yes.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (12:18.531)
And what I think what you're referring to is, kind of, I can relate to, I suppose, is that sense of, I most people who grieve would say is that a part of them died with the person who's no longer there. And that sense of the something missing, like almost physically missing, like an empty space.
that can be painful, also you just kind of almost like physically experience like an empty vessel or something kind of inside you that must be in some ways, I suppose, represented in the brain structure or some sense of loss that it's not just in the external world, but also internally that that's what often people I've spoken to.
Also speaking from my own experience, that I kind of were really struck by that it does really, it is physically located inside
Amber (13:26.842)
I mean, I think that there will be I can't comment in particular about the neurophysiology of that experience. But what I would suggest is that it's likely connected to the brain being a predictive machine as well. The brain is always predicting what is going to happen next when it has had previous experiences, it uses what it's learned previously to make sense of each and every new moment that we encounter. If we had to consciously
all of that awareness all the time, we would be overloaded. So the brain has done most of the work outside of our conscious awareness. And what they say is that really, when the brain encounters something unexpected, that's when we kind of tune in to what's going on, because there's a mismatch between what the brain was thinking is going to happen next, and what actually is in fact happening.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (14:22.37)
So it's like a map. What are you saying? Are you referring to like an internal map of the external world?
Amber (14:29.424)
So we can call it there. mean, yes, it's a it's not just it is a map. It is an internal map. But it's also an expectation where we actually have what we call action potential. So going into a room and seeing, you know, the the kettle sitting in the kitchen means that we have activated different areas of our brain that are responsible for moving our feet towards it and to get our arm ready to reach for a cup. There's is that level of firing that they'll see even before we decide that we're going in for a cup of tea.
So if you had a loss, it means that the brain is constantly trying to predict what's going to happen next, but because things might be very different, it's alerting and you're getting brought back into attention much more.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (14:59.968)
Mm.
Amber (15:14.522)
than you would be if everything that's just going on is normal. And that takes a lot of energy. So it means that the brain is working overdrive in that particular piece and that can create fatigue. So the energy loss, which is a big part of all this can also be because the brain's trying to work through what's going on and what's happening next and how to update the fact that there's all these updates that are being required outside of the normal habit.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (15:41.196)
Yes, yes, that makes a lot of sense in terms of the constant reworking through almost like rebuilding this new reality that we found ourselves in because whenever wherever you look like I remember especially the first few weeks after my husband passed away wherever I looked there was a reminder that he was gone and you know you would see
reminders of him, like certain objects or, you know, the fact that he was in the bed. So there's actually cognitively having to process every single element of the house, of your daily routine, because I think there's something specifically about the loss of life partners is the person who's presumably one of the closest people in your life.
and you spend the most time with. So understandably, working through that jasmine is going to take a long time. Just cognitively, not including emotions, just cognitively absorbing that. yeah, and I suppose, yeah, and it made me think a little bit about what often people say when they, when they grieve is just, can't look at this, I
don't show me any reminders or it's just this kind of almost like an internal block or something I can't take it in. I was wondering about that reaction, that first reaction, I can't deal with it because often the first response is a shock or disbelief, this couldn't have happened. So even at the beginning, there's this kind of I can't take it in, it's too much.
Amber (17:31.428)
And think some of that is what we're talking about this real kind of disconnect between the cortex, the prefrontal cortex, the part that's rational and taking in information versus the limbic, which is much more about the feeling and connection with. And so something that just feels like cognitively, you know, but it doesn't feel like you get it yet, because it's too much. we're being with this kind of thing, we're suddenly being absolutely overwhelmed with chemicals,
stress chemicals. And stress chemicals like cortisol is going to affect our hippocampus, our memory, the way that our memory works. It affects our serotonin, so our mood, but serotonin is also impacting our sleep. If we can't sleep properly, if we don't have the same use of our, you know, rational capacities, because the prefrontal cortex is turned down while the limbic system is in overwhelmed state, you know, we aren't able to process
Well, you know, we're making it harder and harder. And then if our energies are wearing out, because we're exhausted, we're not sleeping, we're trying to process things in that sense of making understanding of all this new stuff that's no longer dependent on old predictions, you know, we can find that we then aren't taking care of our body so well, because we just don't have the space or the energy to see how there's this feedback loop that is happening in grief, that's very much around how the brain is trying to
all of a sudden expected change, everything from attachment to stress response to self -care and sleep and what we put into our bodies when we're in that state, then just creates this feeling of just complete overwhelming, often shut down.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (19:15.01)
Yeah, yeah. Which is, in a way, it's obviously very distressing to be on the receiving end of that, isn't it? But it kind of, I was just thinking, kind of makes sense that we go through this, even though it might be really uncomfortable and painful and, I suppose, terribly confusing at times. But what would be the alternative to just be
with the new stray away and having to absorb everything in one go. don't know, probably most of us would end up in some kind of breakdown. I don't know what would have happened if this wasn't in place because, you know, there's a reason why we respond with this level of distress, isn't
Amber (20:04.728)
I mean, I guess, you know, the bottom line is that it's supposed to be an alarm system. That's what that's what these chemicals are doing. They're trying to let us know that our safety is at risk. And even though it might be the loss of someone else close to us, our brains are saying, you know, there's been a significant shift that's happened and, you know, we may not be okay. So as an
system and now the brain is faulty. We know that and there's different ways that we can help it along and there's ways that we can help give it corrective experiences. There's ways that we can get caught in some of the traps, of course, that don't necessarily help it. But really all of this is yes, it's a way that the body is responding to say, hey, there's a significant problem. We need to have attention to this and figure out what to do next for even our own survival.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (21:05.426)
So that includes initially being in this kind of what I would refer to as a denial stage, I definitely was, I think I've managed to, which is very common, I think, for people to somehow find a way in believing that the person didn't really die, even though they logically, I think the logical brain knows that they passed away, they saw the body and they know what that means.
but on some other level, it's almost like you catch yourself thinking, yeah, they're in hospice or on holiday or they're somewhere else. They're gonna come back, right? Like it's this really strange, really bizarre experience that I think it took me about a year to realize that was still secretly believing that my husband was still in the hospice.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (22:00.172)
Yeah, and suddenly when I went there, and I remember this woman, the receptionist asked me this very normal question, why are you here? Why are you here for? And I was so angry because I suddenly had to explain to her and to myself that he died and I'm just visiting the place because it has very personal meaning to me. And then seeing other people, other people.
of visiting and patients in the hospice. It was kind of like a real shock to me that actually, yes, he died, but at some level, like it was quite incredible how our brain is capable of holding those two completely opposite beliefs in place.
Amber (22:53.038)
Now that that's a big part of different types of therapy to dialectics, you know, knowing or believing or feeling the opposite things at the same time. And we have the space and capacity to do that there was going to be pathways, some neuronal pathways that your brain was used to predicting and knowing that he was going to be in this place because that was the learned experiences over time. And, you know, you probably had some association and connection and chemicals
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (22:57.743)
Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (23:38.932)
Yes.
How is that? How would you explain that? That sense? Because it absolutely fascinates me. The subject of distortion of time and space a little bit as well. But the time, God, like it just, I just felt like it's been a week or a year and I wouldn't be able to tell you which one it was. Like it's so powerful.
that you're feeling like you're floating in the air, like it's not really being connected to the world. It's completely bizarre.
Amber (24:16.676)
Yeah, I don't know if I can give full detail, but what we do know is that, you know, the our big old this cortex, this frontal lobe in the top, our ability to think through and think about our thinking, you know, it has a very important skill that we don't believe many other animals acquire, which is the ability to time shift, we can think about the past, we can ruminate, we can go over and over, we can think about the future, we can think about
that haven't happened, we can, you know, have creativity and come up with possibility. And actually, you know, sometimes we even can say that, I mean, this is, again, very simplistic, but we often say anxiety is about that forward thinking, you know, what ifs of the future depression may be linked to things that are more about rumination of things that have previously happened. And what we do in therapy and psychology is we really spend a lot of time teaching people to stay in the present.
Because that actually is if you really think about your inner world, how much time do you really spend thinking about the right here right now? Most of the time we we practice time shifting. So we practice all the time going over what happened previously or what might happen later, not just being here. So that can be really difficult when you're overcome, you know, to come back to what time is now as opposed to time shifting.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (25:33.495)
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (25:42.828)
Yes. Because that is a way of running away from the reality of the loss, isn't it? If I live in the past, reliving and keeping that memory of him alive in my mind, then I'm kind of, almost like... I can't be at the same time in touch with reality of the present moment. So I remember kind of shifting in between those two states.
of, you know, okay, I can be here in the present moment doing something else, but I have to keep, almost like actively keep him out of that space. And, and then switching over to the past and keeping almost like bringing the past to the future. But obviously, it's still rumination and kind of memories of the past. But, but that kind of those almost like those two different worlds that get separated
And I suppose the role of the grief and mourning is to bring those two worlds together and kind of allow those bridges to be created so you can actually integrate them a bit more so you don't have to switch in between. I think I found that really tiring and exhausting, having to live in two different worlds, which is often what people refer to, like they're just completely catapulted into a different...
world all together yeah life
Amber (27:39.414)
And even just being really mindful in this moment, you know, just sitting at this table by myself, that is a moment where, you know, there's nothing else in the world. It's just me here. And that could be a really nice piece that we try and encourage people so that sometimes they just at least get breaks.
Amber (28:01.536)
Time out. Can I time out? The last time that you interrupted me was because he had come in and I was having like a brain scramble.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (28:02.75)
Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, yeah,
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (28:11.662)
It's fine, yeah. Take your time, don't worry.
Amber (29:05.54)
hear me screaming at them now. I'm so sorry. don't remember what it was. This is life. I was losing the train of thought even when I was trying to get across. yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (29:05.774)
That was brilliant. No, it's just, this is life, right? Back to reality.
Yeah, so I was just trying to remember where we
where we left it.
Amber (29:31.962)
So I think we were talking about being in the presence just in the moment here is as a boy, that's what I said about avoid is not always being a bad thing that we need to have moments where we can avoid and just have a rest. That's what I was gonna try to say. So maybe I can start that again. Okay.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (29:35.512)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (29:46.466)
Yep. Yep.
Amber (29:49.976)
So, you know, when we're in the present here, it just means that sometimes that gives us a break, a bit of a rest, and hopefully even a little bit of restoration if we can bring the whole system down. Being truly present means not thinking about what has happened in the past and not worrying about what will happen in the future given the circumstances. It means being truly here in this moment. And a lot of times that moment is very, very safe.
moments for your whole system to come down. What I mean by that is that the stress response to come down a bit if it can to be able to practice some deep breathing even for just very short periods of time that turns on the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the relaxation response. It happens for everybody. And so having just a little bit of time to come down at least gives that body a bit of rest before then of course all the thoughts and everything kicks back in again and the reality
start to set. So it isn't about always just avoiding doing things that are good for us, especially if they're breaks. And I think a lot of people sometimes can feel a lot of guilt if they feel like they're moving on, or feeling like they're going to forget or something of that nature, so they don't necessarily take these breaks.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (31:01.784)
Mm -hmm. Yes.
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (31:09.686)
Yes, but I think what you're saying is this is actually essential in being able to work through grief because if we're in this state of surviving and being flooded by cortisol, adrenaline, all the stress hormones, then we're never going to learn to regulate and process because we never kind of reach that.
Amber (31:29.892)
That's right. You literally won't have the cognitive capacity to do so because you won't be able to go through the process when you are on constant high alert because all those chemicals in the limbic system are taking over, reducing prefrontal cortex activity.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (31:46.636)
Yes, and so essential to integrate those two different parts. I think from the processing point of view, as you're saying, it's how we, I suppose, make room for both states of mind, the grieving state where we're ruminating maybe sometimes, but also processing what happened and what we left with, I suppose.
And then coming out of that, which is kind of, okay, I'm going to have a break, I'm going to do something nice, I'm going to look after myself, I'm going to connect with my friends and build my life around loss, which is, as you're saying, something that many people feel guilty about and sometimes remain stuck in this frozen state for a very, very long time. And that is often a concern.
And this is a sign when something, the natural process of grieving isn't taking place. And I see it a lot, especially on social media, when people post something about how they've been in this state for seven, 10 years. It feels like it happened yesterday. It's like they still can't believe it. And you can tell that no, no processing has taken place. very little processing has taken place.
And that's quite, I think, quite difficult reality to observe. And you notice that that could be going on for a very long time, that kind of almost like a brain not being able for various reasons to process things, like on a very, you're describing, I know it from more kind of emotional level, but you're describing it much more on a cognitive level and biological level, what goes on in the brain.
which is so important to
Amber (33:43.756)
that's what I want to just be clear that I am focused right now on that real like physiological understanding. Because I feel like I'm taking away the concept of all the emotional experience right now. But it's only for the purpose of this that we're just talking very scientifically. But even that what you're describing, we talk about the vagus nerve. The vagus nerve is a major pathway that runs from our
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (34:00.227)
Yes,
Amber (34:13.762)
down our spine, almost goes through each of our major organs and loops from our stomach comes out to our heart and to our lungs and
again. And this nerve is a big highway for the sympathetic nervous system for the stress response. That's the nerve that's activated when we're having the adrenaline cortisol response and we're having the shortening of breath and our heart rate is starting to up and heightened. That's what adrenaline is doing to us to get us ready for a fight or a flight. And the idea is that when you're in that heightened state, you have nothing to fight. You can't flee anywhere.
this major buildup and it's just being held up there, we can enter what we call a dorsal vagal collapse. And that's the stomach and it the concept of it, the visualization of it is that real turn and where you almost go into that infant kind of is the freeze response. You see it in animals, when they've hit such a heightened level of cortisol and adrenaline response, and they're just overwhelmed, they just go into a state of collapse.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (35:08.462)
Yeah
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (35:26.946)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, so there's nothing else to do but just kind of give up. it just...
Amber (35:35.51)
It's an overwhelm of the whole system. know, the limbic system, the body is so heightened and overwhelmed that it can't regulate and all that they can do is just literally freeze. But this is why we are always talking to people about being clear about when it's time to get support.
how important that piece is and that part of what's happening, particularly when there's been disruption of the attachment, all of these chemicals, all of these processes are exhausting. We're not sleeping. We're not taking care of ourselves. What we don't want to do is go engage socially. That's very difficult. So isolation is a more natural thing for people to do.
That's absolutely opposite of what people need to do to make sure that they're moving forward and getting what they need. Whether or not that's just having attachment and reconnection with other people in their circle or finding professionals that can help. You know, we're talking about one, one, one, like oneself. But I was also thinking about people who are parents who have to go through a grieving process with a child and how much additional pressure and difficulty that can be.
to feel responsible for somebody else and their grieving process while trying to go through your own. There's lots of ways that we know that we can help children understand. understand more than we give them credit for often. But to navigate all of that, we really do need assistance. And that should be normalized and okay, even though it can feel really hard to seek it.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (37:11.998)
Mm. Mm. Yeah.
As you say, because if we're losing that primary attachment figure of a life partner, the natural healthy response is to look for that attachment system elsewhere. So whether this is your friends or family members or forming new attachments to other people that kind of holding space. you kind of, because we regulate often we regulate through creating attachments or maintaining attachments. But in grief, we often see this
social isolation, this kind of stepping away from the outside world, which is in a way normal to some extent, as you're saying, but it has to be, there has to be space for life, I suppose, for connection with other people, even though the initial reaction might be, okay, I really don't feel like doing it because my body is collapsing. But I think it's very hard, I think, in that moment.
To recognize that actually it's your brain going into that state doesn't mean it's that this is what this is the reality. So we kind of feel something and we take it as a given like that's what it is. I think what you're saying is that when we get flooded by those stress hormones and there's a permanent sense of a state of stress, then
unless there is any kind of, I suppose, attachment bonding or kind of attachment relationships coming in from the outside world, it's impossible. in a way we could say that a grieving person might not be capable of reaching out and forming those contacts with other people. So when we think about people who are socially isolated and they don't have anyone around them, how...
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (39:16.35)
they do that? mean that's the major risk factor isn't it? Social isolation and all sorts of mental health problems.
Amber (39:23.446)
It definitely is. mean, that's a much wider problem, isn't it? We knew this and we saw what happened in COVID, was another example that really in in vivo demonstrated all of the science about how people live longer when they're in a community and such. we know how important that is. But I think what we're trying to do is help somebody see, again, like we were saying before, the role of the brain, what it's doing,
why it's doing these things, how it's not always how sometimes it's filled with error, it might not always be in our full best interest, it's in a survival state, it's trying to just keep you alive first. That's what the brain's main goal is. And sometimes we need to understand that to be able to then say, okay, how do I find even the little bits here or there or the little resources or even make one phone call that might make a difference?
of self -compassion when it's too hard, too much, but you try again. You keep going, then they say try again. mean, hope is always going to be our guiding principle and sometimes it feels that hope is impossible when we're in that overwhelmed state. But sometimes it's about hearing these things, these messages that we're giving, almost having a borrowed brain, almost knowing that it's there even if in the moment we're too overwhelmed to be able to take it or feel it.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (40:26.498)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (40:55.19)
Yes, absolutely. And I was just thinking about all these people who haven't had any previous experience of trauma or significant loss before and suddenly something like this happens. It's very difficult to know and assess. Is this normal? Is this not normal? Why am I feeling this way? Why suddenly my brain's not functioning?
as well as it used to. Like I remember having such difficult, I suppose cognitive problems, like memory problems or difficulty concentrating. Like I didn't quite remember or couldn't concentrate on watching TV or even reading a book was a challenge. Like taking things in, I suppose, was very, very hard for quite some
And I just, just, just, just thinking like that, that kind of level of disruption almost like made me think, Oh, am I just going into like dementia? Like, I just having an early onset of dementia at 38 or something?
Amber (42:09.892)
mean, there is is, you know, similarities in that process, you know, there is similarity, but and we know that anxiety and depression, part of the symptoms that develop from those are cognitive differences, attention and concentration. And this is a normal part of the disruption of when we have, you know, mental health difficulties, what we know about it, and actually was really
interesting is in an older population, you can diagnose depression with an older population without them actually claiming to have low mood. So memory disruption can be one of the hallmark signs of depression in an older population in the absence of subjective low mood, which is a really interesting idea. The concept that there will be memory disruption or different cognitive impact
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (43:02.158)
Wow.
Amber (43:09.71)
What we know is that it's reversible. That's different than organic change, which often could be a progressive, more debilitating condition. these things to for people to understand it is normal. And it's because of what the functioning of the brain is doing. When you're in high alert, mostly, not what that means is that we're having a lot of attention into our surroundings and to our internal state. Our focus is supposed to be on whatever
Amber (44:13.766)
your memory and your recall, the ability to go into your memory storm, pull out the memory you're looking for, the words you're looking for, whatever you're trying to speak about, that again is a prefrontal cortex activity. So these things are what's being disrupted because the activity in those areas are reduced because the limbic system is requiring so much additional work given the heightened state that we are in.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (44:40.014)
Yes, yes, everything just feels much harder. Yeah, it's like your IQ is suddenly dropping like 30 points or something. I remember thinking, oh my, where's my brain gone? It's really quite...
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (45:08.982)
Yes, exactly. And I think it's when we start to come back to our, I suppose, day to day activities or the usual work duties that over time, I suppose, there's these kind of abilities and capacities to think, especially processing very complex information, they do come back. mean, I definitely feel better now than I did last year. I always think that a
comparing it to my laptop and I remember trying to do something on my laptop the first few months after I came back to work, returned to work after a long break and I was like, I can't find anything. It's just everything is all over the place. How did I used to do this? Where do I edit this document? Everything was all over the place. That really represented, I think, how my brain was functioning. It's just like, yeah, I know I have to cook dinner, but how do I
vegetables, how do I then boil the potatoes and you know, something else, make a sauce or you know, it was just complex, very complex for what it was meant to
Amber (46:20.132)
You know, there's two other interesting pieces that come from that too, which is that when we start to notice or start to feel that we are making errors or that we're not capable like we used to, that becomes a new threat. We start attending to that more too. We start finding more and more examples of how we're not capable like we once were. Look at what this thing has done to me now. That in itself, again, same system being activated.
a new threat about feeling that you we're not functioning and we're so disrupted and like we're gonna lose our jobs and we just can't function anymore and what does this mean for us and will ever change? New threat, new heights and stress, new state, we're back into a whole other feedback loop. And with that comes loss of confidence.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (47:05.194)
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (47:10.946)
Yes.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (47:30.828)
Yes, and that kind of, if we don't know that that's the case, then we will just give up on trying. But if you've got that information somewhere in your mind that it's just a matter of time, you keep trying, keep doing things, and as you're saying, small chunks, one day after another, you gradually increase that confidence. But I think many people just maybe stop trying, they just, as you're saying, they never get out of that loop
takes them much longer because you know it's much harder and yeah it's just I think a very complex process to go through and I suppose the sleep plays a role in that too doesn't it like I mean some people find it really I suppose really difficult to sleep whereas others I mean sleep quite a lot I find it really interesting this whole
impact that Grieve has on our sleep and dreams. I wonder what you think about that.
Amber (48:40.252)
I guess one piece is this rule of serotonin. So when serotonin levels have dropped after grief, that in itself disrupts So you already have a sleep issue there. When you are high cortisol, when you have a lot of that activity, that energy, it is not the time when you're high in cortisol, you know, hiding from a tiger to go to sleep. So our bodies are naturally going to be keeping us awake because
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (48:54.424)
Hmm.
Amber (49:09.936)
we must be awake for survival. So that's what's happening internally. We also know that, you know, dream states dreams, we have a very active amygdala, particularly when we're dreaming and the amygdala is the part of it's the part of the limbic system that's involved in a heavy emotion processing in particular, and stressful things and threatening things. So it's more than just that, but it's normally associated with that. And the amygdala is involved in talking to the
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (49:33.742)
Thank you.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (50:01.304)
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it just actually made me think about when my husband died for a period of at least several weeks, it kind of became less and less intense as time went by. But initially it was every night I would wake up around maybe 1am, half past 1am. It was around the time when
died and every single night I would find myself really quite surprised by the fact that I would be awake in the middle of the night. And I was able to go back to sleep after after some time, but that disruption was happening every single night and then maybe then became maybe a few every few nights and then eventually maybe once in a while. But it wasn't until
I kind of put the two together that that's why I was waking up because I was asleep when he actually passed away. And I think it was just kind of like my body really. I remember when they woke me up to say that this was happening and I was trying to rush to the hospice and thinking, rushing and really beating myself up for falling asleep.
even though I was really tired and there was just no other way. We couldn't just stay there, all of us at the same time waiting for inevitable. But remember that kind of moment when I realised that, that's why, that's what my brain is trying to do, is trying to process the fact that I overslept, that I missed the fact that he was dying. And yes, it's
quite surprising the impact and the lack of, I suppose, lack of logic, but when you look into it, it kind of makes sense.
Amber (52:04.236)
It does what was your brain trying to say is a threat. It was trying to say, well, maybe this whole sleep thing is not so safe. And again, this is a brain making an error.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (52:12.022)
Mm. Yes.
Amber (52:17.902)
but trying to come up with what's the best way to keep you safe. And this is all about what the processing journey is. You're seeing from the brain, this side, this wonderful thing we have that makes us us, marrying it with our experiences and with our feelings and emotions states and making sure we just keep caring for ourselves and our brain and have a huge amount of self compassion.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (53:32.75)
So sometimes it might fail if you're doing something against your internal values system or something, as you're saying, you know, I feel guilty, therefore I shouldn't be going out or meeting with my friends. I should be staying at home and grieving, whatever that means, that concept is. But I think what you're saying is that we have to have that almost like a dual
process, like what is your brain trying to do? How is it trying to protect me? And is this in my best interest? Which is really interesting to think about it this way. It's almost like an internal battle, isn't it? Between two opposing forces, I suppose. One is to preserve life, or like, as you're saying, this kind of fight or flight response. Very rigid.
but as you're saying, essential when something very threatening is taking place. And then there's this kind of more logical thinking part that is saying, well, actually, what is this really such a bad thing? Should you really feel so bad about
Amber (54:52.1)
I mean, you know, a little just kind of light hearted note, we're driven to go now check our phones every time there's a little ping, because our brain is saying there's this really amazing reward that's going to happen if you just go look. It's like a notification that I should be doing Duolingo. Like, that's what this reward is. But that I know that and I'm still driven by it because my brain is driving with that dopamine hit that's the surge that every one of those people
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (55:07.725)
Yes.
Amber (55:22.034)
Silicon Valley are working very hard to keep me hooked to. You know, that's an example of how our brain is working for the concepts of survival. My brain is just thinking, well, maybe there's like a massive feast that will keep me alive. And, you know, there's a zebra that I can go cut up and feed the tribe. You know, that's what my brain is saying, even though I'm very aware that it's just another little notification. And that's the point. We're making our brain to make errors all the time.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (56:03.566)
Mm -hmm.
Amber (56:21.986)
And there's definitely a balance. It's all about mental flexibility, not hard rigid rules. And it's all about balance. So there will be appropriate times to sit at home and grieve. know, what we don't want is avoidance of those feelings. A lot of times people are afraid of their own feelings. They're afraid that they're going to get the overwhelm and the collapse and they'll never get out of it.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (57:24.298)
Exactly, and I think that note about having this social, some kind of social tribe or some people who you can talk to, or whether that's professional help, peer support, family, friends, all that, it's so essential, especially when, yes, exactly, we're even groups
therapy, all sorts of things that you can do really, yoga, like there's so much that you can do, I think, to process grief, not just talking. But I was thinking, because sometimes it's so hard to reason with this almost like an immediate response you get in your body, the immediate kind of, and you sometimes need someone to come in and say, maybe that's not the best idea.
Amber (58:16.164)
be there.
Yeah, yes, absolutely. You know, I do think that remembering the stress of the broken attachment is something that is valuable to you know, it is a helpful thing. You you said that you were going back to the hospice because it was a place of attachment that connection again, that could be, you know, enjoying the hobby or a group of friends or something of the
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (58:37.208)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (58:55.214)
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (59:16.791)
Absolutely.
Amber (59:24.21)
Okay, honestly, I'm still recording you're not supposed to be in here
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (59:30.806)
Don't worry, we're finishing anyway. Yeah, so now I was thinking when you were just describing it, that kind of cultivation of the attachments in a different form, in a different way, as you're saying, holding on to those precious moments, those precious aspects that we still hold in our minds, in our brain, they're still kind of alive and that's...
That's what is beautiful, I think, about grief and working through grief is that you do get access to those memories and they are mostly saturated with fondness and laughter and joy and those kind of difficult moments, are not as upsetting. So they kind of find a different place perhaps in our minds. And I think that's really
you know, a healthy, resilient grieving looks like. And sadly, one that I think many people don't really know it's possible. And one of the reasons why I'm speaking to so many psychologists and professionals who know something about grieving is to kind of really help people understand that there is a better way to grief and the brain isn't this very irrational.
machine that cannot be reasoned with, that we can find a way to rewrite the script and to find a way back into life. So it's been really enlightening and so promising, I suppose, talking to you about the brain and what we can do, how to approach our brain
and what we can do to stimulate this more resilient form of grieving. So thank you so much Amber, it's been real pleasure.
Dr Monika Wieliczko Www.guidetoafterlife.com (01:01:31.054)
Okay I'm gonna then press pause now.
