Dr Monika Wieliczko (00:01.475)
Welcome to a guide to After Life. In today's episode, you're talking about grief and yoga and how we can use yoga and somatic practices to help us on our journey of grief. And with me today is Dr. Beth Stroyd. She's a clinical psychologist who specializes in working with body, mind,
and heart. And I wanted to welcome you today, Beth.
Beth (00:39.652)
Hi, thanks Monica. Thank you for having me.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (00:42.755)
It's lovely to have you here. And thank you for agreeing to give us some of your time to talk about this really interesting topic, this connection between our mind and our body. And I think specifically thinking in a context of grief after a profound loss, like the loss of a life partner, where so much goes on and so much goes on in our minds, but also in our bodies.
Beth (00:52.932)
Mm.
Beth (01:11.268)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (01:11.843)
And I suppose you are one of those people who have been able to integrate those yoga practices and somatic processes in your practice as a clinical psychologist, which is such an incredibly important and quite a novel way of working because most of us psychologists work with our thinking and emotions, but in a rather cognitive way.
Beth (01:39.78)
Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (01:41.091)
that often excludes what goes on in our body. And when we're thinking about traumatic experiences like a loss, it almost feels impossible to address without thinking of our body. So this episode is all about our bodies and how we can grieve through our bodies. So I really wanted to ask you about what got you interested in yoga.
Beth (01:56.9)
Yeah.
Beth (02:03.204)
you
Dr Monika Wieliczko (02:11.043)
in the first place and where did it start and how you managed to integrate it into your practice as a psychologist.
Beth (02:11.204)
Mmm.
Beth (02:20.356)
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, my first experience with yoga was actually in the final year of the clinical psychology doctorate, which we did together. And so you probably remember this day as well, but we had a day towards the end of our training in the third year, which was all about using yoga in psychology practice. Before then I had
Dr Monika Wieliczko (02:33.539)
Yes, we did. Yes.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (02:44.515)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (02:47.396)
never practiced yoga. I think I was quite naive about what it actually was. By that point, I'd been practicing Pilates for years and mindfulness meditation and kind of thought, it's just a combination of the two. And when we had this whole day focused on yoga and psychology, it really opened my eyes to, well...
Dr Monika Wieliczko (03:07.125)
Hmm.
Beth (03:12.228)
not even the whole of yoga really, that was just a very small introduction to a specific type of yoga, which was Nidra yoga, which is yogic sleep. So this is a specific type of practice. And this day just, it was my favorite day of the training, essentially. I'd never experienced this kind of connection before between mind and body.
We learned about the neuroscience as well. And I really love that when there's a bridge between understanding kind of more ancient and Eastern wisdoms and practices and then Western modern science when they come together. It's just my favorite place to be really and integrating that. And this day of training really showed me how yoga makes sense to bring into our psychology practice as well.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (03:40.611)
Mm.
Beth (04:06.308)
So that's where it started out. And from there, I decided I wanted to explore more and began practicing yoga at home with YouTube videos. So Yoga with Adrienne, which I think most people have probably heard of these days. And I started out with her because I wasn't feeling quite ready to go into a studio. I wasn't sure what that would involve or if I was ready for it.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (04:20.771)
Yes.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (04:30.723)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (04:35.428)
So I practiced quite a bit at Homeverse online and was just really loving it more and more. Eventually joined a yoga studio local to me. And then I ended up going there about three or four times a week. And each time for a different kind of practice, I would do three or four different types of yoga a week. And yeah, it just, I noticed that it was really having a lot of benefits for my physical.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (04:50.083)
Mm.
Beth (05:05.316)
well -being, of course, because you're really working a lot with moving the body and holding postures. So it really helps improve overall strength and flexibility, the things people usually associate with yoga, right, you know, but also kind of practicing in an environment with other people. And I started to notice an effect on kind of my psychological.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (05:21.059)
Yes.
Beth (05:33.764)
wellbeing as well that I felt I had more and more capacity really to kind of cope with things with life's ups and downs. So I would say perhaps I was a bit less aware of that side at that point compared to now as my practice has kind of developed and evolved over the years and gone deeper as well. But this was where the kind of initial experience came from.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (05:49.731)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (06:02.851)
you
Beth (06:03.14)
And then at the time as well, I was working in a chronic pain management service. So working in this service, of course, we're really talking about and working with the body a lot with the patients who come there who are living with persistent pain conditions and often with other health conditions alongside with pain conditions affecting their mental health. But also something that was very common was a lot of people
Dr Monika Wieliczko (06:09.123)
Yes.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (06:14.293)
Yeah. Yes.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (06:20.579)
Hmm.
Beth (06:33.124)
had trauma in their background as well. Sometimes that was traumatic events that had happened in the past and sometimes stuff that was still ongoing as well. And of course, all of this was really reflected in their experience of pain. So I guess when I was working there, I felt more and more like, I'm not sure we're quite addressing the body enough here. We were...
working with the body, talking about the body, noticing the body. But it felt like we were still mostly really in the space of traditional talking therapy. Yeah, and I think that was really helpful in many ways. But it just felt to me and I think especially since doing this day and bringing integrating yoga and psychology at the end of our training, I just kind of had this
Dr Monika Wieliczko (07:07.811)
Just talking.
Beth (07:30.468)
sense that there's a lot more we could be doing here to support this patient group. So while I was working there I ended up going to a symposium, so like a kind of conference day on chronic pain and yoga therapy which I saw advertised which was hosted by the Minded Institute in London and again this whole day really opened my eyes to what's possible to
Dr Monika Wieliczko (07:34.659)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (07:50.403)
Wow.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (07:59.907)
Good.
Beth (08:00.388)
work with pain using the lens of yoga therapy. So lots of neuroscience, again, as well as traditional practices and the traditional lens and lots of different speakers talking about and again, introducing us to some different practices of how yoga therapy can support people living with chronic pain as well. Again, with a lot of acknowledgement of mental health.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (08:20.387)
Mm.
Beth (08:29.252)
connections and in particular how trauma relates to the experience of chronic pain. And after doing that day there with them, I went on to do a short course with them in yoga therapy skills for psychologists, which introduced me to some other ways of using yoga actually integrated into talking therapy. So that included
looking at breathing patterns that people have and doing an assessment of breathing patterns and then using that to inform how can we help to perhaps create some shifts in how you're breathing, some awareness in how you're breathing and how this also relates to how we feel physically, how we feel emotionally, as well as other things like being aware of our posture, how we're holding ourselves, how we move.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (09:03.619)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (09:09.507)
Yes.
Beth (09:23.108)
or in a very kind of mindful way, so really paying this kind of close attention with non -judgment and with compassion as well. So that's kind of the background to where we saw started out. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (09:35.555)
Yeah.
Yeah, so one session. I remember that session very well, Beth, because I still remember how relaxed I felt and the fact that we didn't have to sit up, that we were laying down on the floor and I was just like, if only we could have the rest of our teaching laying down and just relaxing and just the pace of the day was very different, which I think that's what you're tapping into is like instead of using your head and your brain, you actually
Beth (09:42.82)
Mmm.
Beth (09:46.852)
Yes.
Yes.
Beth (09:55.876)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Beth (10:02.596)
Mm. Mm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (10:08.259)
finding a different access point to your experiences and your memories because as you're saying, they just, it's not, I think talking isn't always enough. And it's still such a novel way of working, I think using somatic processes, but also, you know, it's still growing and developing. But actually, as you're saying, it was, we had one day in three years, which I think
Beth (10:11.556)
Mm.
Beth (10:19.684)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (10:26.884)
Mm.
Beth (10:31.012)
Yeah.
Beth (10:34.628)
Mm -hmm. Mm. Yes.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (10:36.547)
says it all, how little attention our bodies get in psychology. And we're kind of on a mission to change it and expanding those ways of working. So I think which is why I thought you will be a brilliant person to talk to about this, because you've you're an example of such a massive shift, yoga and those practices had in your life and, and then you're bringing it with into your clinical work with clients.
Beth (10:44.868)
Yes.
Beth (10:50.276)
Hmm.
Beth (10:54.788)
Mmm.
Mm.
Beth (11:03.364)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (11:03.811)
and some of them suffering from trauma, from grief, all sorts of experiences that could be accessed through working in your body. So that's really, really quite fascinating. And I suppose it made me think about that different way of accessing the traumatic experiences or even the emotional experiences and
Beth (11:13.988)
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Beth (11:33.572)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (11:33.635)
that it's not necessarily happening in your head. You think about something and that makes you feel something and then you kind of think about it and then it makes the feeling better, which is the traditional way of working. But you're talking about something different. It's about notice what's happening, if I understood correctly, notice what's happening in your body. You know, you're talking about breathing or whatever.
Beth (11:36.552)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Beth (11:47.172)
Mmm.
Beth (11:51.908)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (11:56.612)
Hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (12:01.091)
I'm sure you can say a bit more about that in a second. And that gives you an access to a felt state or an emotion and then allows that kind of much more tactile experience of something like grief, for example.
Beth (12:01.86)
Yeah.
Beth (12:09.924)
Hmm.
Beth (12:19.716)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think there's so much intelligence in our bodies that we're not tapping into so much wisdom. And we've really kind of been missing out on that not just in our clinical work, actually, as psychologists, but I think wider society that we're really quite cut off and disconnected from really kind of
Dr Monika Wieliczko (12:43.587)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Beth (12:48.1)
seeing and knowing and understanding what's happening inside of us. We're very heady, very cognitive in the Western world. It's not like that everywhere in the world. There are other cultures who are much more connected to their bodies and you see the difference that that makes for them. And that particularly shows up in how we experience grief as well and what feels almost kind of okay or expected of what it means.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (12:54.243)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (13:16.964)
to grieve in our culture. So yeah, I think absolutely awareness is really a key part of this is how do we start to increase our awareness of what's actually happening inside? Because when we're trying to just act from that level of kind of thinking, talking, the cognitive level, the intellectualizing, analyzing, I think
often people come to me who are used to doing that, they start to get this sense of, well, this is what I think, but I still feel this way. They feel this disconnect between how they think and how they feel. And I think that's something in the last couple of years in particular, I've been working on wanting to bridge more and more. How do we help people to bridge those things so that our thoughts and what we feel in our body are actually more.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (13:56.419)
Mm.
Beth (14:16.58)
alignment that that's where we really get our best kind of wisdom from to understand ourselves and understand others and to kind of function in the world in a more effective way.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (14:18.051)
you
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (14:26.115)
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (14:30.883)
in a more integrated way, as you're saying, because I almost think that what's ever is stored in the body is often those parts of us that are not acceptable to us, and they kind of get pushed down to your body, and that often can come out in grief that whatever we can't feel or we can't accept.
Beth (14:32.996)
Mmm.
Beth (14:45.412)
Mmm.
Beth (14:51.14)
Mm.
Beth (14:57.636)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (14:58.435)
gets kind of often pushed down into the body and it comes out in those different ways how our organ might be working. And I remember it quite vividly, how my body was reacting at different stages of my grief. So even before my late husband died, actually, there was this anticipatory grief, which is quite different to an actual death. But, but the body was the first
Beth (15:05.22)
Mmm. Mmm.
Beth (15:13.284)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (15:17.348)
you
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (15:26.019)
element of me that responded to grief. And I think there was a lot of that kind of inability to eat, like the appetite really restricted and just the anxiety, the difficulty with sleep. So just the arousal of your nervous system was, my nervous system was just so activated that I just couldn't regulate. And it's the shock response to something really
Beth (15:29.636)
Mmm.
Beth (15:36.836)
Mmm.
Beth (15:43.204)
you
Beth (15:49.828)
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (15:55.139)
traumatic, like receiving news of an illness that could be very likely to be terminal. And that is something that I think we don't really have the knowledge or understanding of. How do you work with that? How do you then react, respond to those kind of difficult experiences? And as we're saying, I think often
Beth (15:55.46)
Hmm.
Beth (16:04.196)
Mm.
Beth (16:15.14)
you
Beth (16:21.22)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (16:24.035)
The logic is in the mind, but the intuition often is in the body, isn't it? Like there's something about, you know, sometimes when we feel it, it's not a logical answer. It's often, it just feels right or it feels like it's what I need. And I think often when we saw kacha from our bodies, it almost feels that you can't access that. You can't tap into that resource.
Beth (16:28.208)
Yeah. Yeah.
Beth (16:41.284)
Mmm. Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (16:52.867)
I don't know if it comes up a lot for you in your clinical work or in your personal life, but for me, it's just kind of whenever I feel that I'm ignoring that voice that tells me, you really need to rest or you really need some time or you need to cry or you need to kind of experience something, that's usually when it gets worse, that your body starts to communicate that something's not quite right.
Beth (16:55.62)
Mm.
Mm.
Beth (17:07.428)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (17:12.74)
Yeah.
Beth (17:16.58)
Peace.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's, it's such a common issue, I think, that we suppress, ignore, push down, distract from what's kind of showing up like, yeah, an urge to cry or an urge to rage or, you know, whatever it is and whatever we have believed to be acceptable to feel, to express.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (17:40.931)
Yes.
Beth (17:49.38)
when we push that down, we're not actually getting rid of it. It's still there because these emotions, these sensations need and want to be felt. And I think there's a lot of fear that I often see this, that people experience around, if I allow myself to feel this, then I'm going to get stuck in it. They're just going to get stuck in it and swallowed up by it.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (18:12.835)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (18:15.78)
or that if other people see it, then they might be rejected in some way. And so actually something that I spend a lot of time on with people is helping them to begin to notice what is there that they might have been suppressing and rejecting and distracting from within themselves. And this can be very, very slow, gentle work, because if we are used to doing that a lot, then...
Dr Monika Wieliczko (18:21.027)
Yes.
Beth (18:41.572)
We can't just barge straight in there and say, okay, let all the tears out straight away. Let yourself rage. I think a lot of people aren't ready to go there until we just take some very kind of small steps. So just tapping in, noticing it, just seeing what a little bit of it feels like and moving more and more into that from a very non -judgmental place of just kind of noticing what's there, what's there.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (18:47.523)
You
Dr Monika Wieliczko (18:57.635)
Yeah.
Beth (19:09.156)
And I think people begin to learn as we go into this more and more that actually when we allow it to come up, we can actually allow it to move through of us and it will rise and we'll feel kind of the peak of whatever the emotion is or the physical experience. And then it will pass down again and it will be complete. And I think this is such a key moment when people get to experience this for the first time that actually, yeah, this sadness.
will come and then it will go again. This anger will come and then it will go again. These tears will come and then they'll go again. We don't have to get stuck in them. Again, this can be a very slow, gentle process.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (19:49.795)
And actually, yeah, but I was actually exactly what I was thinking, what makes us feel really stuck is the fact that we can't process it, we can't allow it to happen. So there's always this kind of, it's like a feeling that something's about to come up, but you can't and it's blocked. And that's, I think, often when people experience feeling stuck, especially when you're talking about grief. And one thing you mentioned that really got me thinking,
Beth (20:00.132)
Mm. Mm.
Beth (20:06.18)
Yes. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (20:17.923)
was this whole idea of which feelings are more acceptable and which aren't acceptable in our culture. And, you know, I wonder whether we can think about that a bit, because I think, especially with grief, there is a certain, almost like a socially acceptable or expected way of grieving, which means, okay, you can be upset to some extent, but not too much in public a little bit, but you can't be too happy.
Beth (20:22.116)
Mm. Mm. Yeah.
Beth (20:29.252)
Mm.
Beth (20:36.932)
Mmm... yeah.
Yeah.
Mm.
Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (20:46.915)
You can't be happy if you're grieving. But if you're too sad, then, well, you're getting stuck in your grief. So that's not good either. And the same with other feelings, for example, feeling angry or feeling guilty. I think there's something about anger and guilt that seems, for me personally, has been always an issue. You know, how do you...
Beth (20:47.588)
Yeah. Yeah.
Beth (20:55.748)
Hmm... Hmm...
Beth (21:02.564)
Hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (21:14.883)
deal with your own guilt and how guilt manifests in your life, but also anger, because we live in a society. I'm thinking in certain culture, especially thinking about living in the UK, coming from a European country, originally from Poland, and where anger, you know, we have our own problems with anger, but expressing anger is generally an acceptable thing. But in the UK, there's such an avoidance of anger because it's
Beth (21:20.1)
you
Beth (21:28.228)
Hmm.
Mm.
Beth (21:36.132)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (21:42.595)
never feel to be safe to express it. And I can see how that obviously I'm over generalizing here, but I think on the whole, I think there's almost like this fear of experiencing certain feelings and how they can then manifest in your body is obviously where it's going to go if you can't express it, you can't process it. And I'm thinking about specifically about feeling angry that someone died. How can you then
Beth (21:42.788)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Beth (21:57.988)
Yeah.
Beth (22:02.052)
Yeah.
Beth (22:09.604)
Hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (22:10.979)
make room for that feeling in your body? Where does it go? How does it manifest? All these kind of different emotional states that can manifest as a pain, as you mentioned earlier, or how your different parts of your body might be functioning or dysfunction, become dysfunctional. It's just mind -filled sometimes thinking about that complexity.
Beth (22:13.22)
Mmm.
Beth (22:17.22)
Hmm. Hmm.
Beth (22:24.9)
Mm.
Beth (22:33.764)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (22:39.428)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, you're really speaking to that, that it's so much more than just the individual in their grief. You know, they'll have their own individual experiences, the experiences in their family and their community, and then the history and intergenerational stuff around their family as well. But the much wider, yeah, society, cultural, historical, philosophical aspects, there's so many layers to grief and what we in different cultures.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (22:45.571)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (23:04.739)
Hmm.
Beth (23:09.38)
I expect or allow of grief rather than just seeing grief is as it is and however it shows up in each individual there's no right or wrong way to be experiencing it even though there's really quite a lot of beliefs or fears around how we should be grieving.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (23:12.899)
Yes.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (23:32.195)
Yeah, yeah, and it's rather quite shocking than what gets pushed into our body after those years and years of not never developing that language because I was thinking about listening to our bodies and and being almost able to translate whatever is coming up into as we're talking about that building that bridge between what's happening in the body and what that means, you know, and it's like
Beth (23:40.1)
Mm.
Beth (23:45.22)
Mmm.
Beth (23:49.732)
Mmm.
Beth (23:54.692)
Yeah.
Beth (23:58.276)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (24:01.699)
I often think about that as a translation of one language from one language to another. You know, and I wonder, you know, obviously you started saying a little bit about that, you know, how that happens and someone's kind of just paying attention to a sensation or breathing and that kind of almost becomes like a gateway to an emotional state that then can come up and take you somewhere.
Beth (24:06.34)
Mm.
Yeah.
Beth (24:12.9)
Mm.
Beth (24:17.508)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Beth (24:29.06)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think what we're speaking to here is something called interoception, which is a perception really of our internal sensations, our internal experience on a felt level. And when we were talking about how we can be so disconnected from our bodies, it's interoception that we're talking about really, like how is our level of interoceptive ability that we can have very
low level awareness of this, but it's a skill we can we can build it we can increase our ability to to notice what's happening inside of us to build the skill of inter reception and this is what yoga is really great for actually it really helps to to build this skill and through that yeah we get increased awareness of what's actually happening inside increased ability to be with what is showing up inside of us and I think
Dr Monika Wieliczko (25:19.363)
Yeah.
Beth (25:26.116)
What excites me is what is on the other side of once we learn to be with and allow whatever is there and let it to move through us. What's on the other side is so much wisdom and so much more capacity to be with whatever is. It's really such a strength and such a resilience when we increase our interoceptive ability. So, you know, that's something I feel really kind of excited about and really a lot of hope around.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (25:40.291)
Bye.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (25:49.507)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Beth (25:55.524)
for many of the people I work with, that there is so much to be gained on the other side of being able to have this somatic awareness, this somatic opening and being with ourselves in this new way that we can gain so much wisdom on the other side of it.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (25:55.715)
Yes.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (26:16.79)
So it's quite a different narrative, isn't it? When you build that ability to communicate from that internal, almost like biological, physiological level, having that awareness instead of pushing it down and suppressing it, you're actually making room for it. And if you make room for it, you can actually use it for your own benefit, as you're saying. So it's instead of just
Beth (26:25.252)
Mm.
Beth (26:31.268)
Mm.
Beth (26:37.38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Beth (26:44.164)
Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (26:45.859)
getting rid of it, which is kind of the root of most of our psychological problems is when we're trying to get rid of something that we can't or actually that we consider being bad or wrong or unacceptable. But actually when you start making room for it, you begin to integrate that into your sense of self and that often leads to growth and development. And as you're saying, that more resilient ways of
Beth (26:47.588)
Mmm.
Beth (26:53.668)
Yeah.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Beth (27:04.708)
Mm.
Mmm. Mmm.
Beth (27:12.42)
Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (27:14.883)
being, which then you can utilise in the future when something else traumatic or difficult happens, you've got that tool set, sets of tools and abilities to help you get through another loss. So I think which is why I think I feel so, I suppose so passionate about talking about mental health in when we experience grief, because I think that when we get ourselves to
Beth (27:15.716)
Mm.
Beth (27:22.212)
Yeah.
Beth (27:27.588)
Hmm. Hmm.
Beth (27:40.228)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (27:43.715)
process our loss and work through it at a deeper level and come to terms with what's gone and not necessarily to not feel... I don't think it's necessarily a reasonable expectation to then think that you're not going to be in pain, but making room for that discomfort. You really are giving yourself a better chance to have more fulfilling life.
Beth (28:05.572)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (28:12.483)
because you can't get rid of trauma, you can't get rid of pain, you can't get rid of your body and the symptoms. But if you find a way to understand yourself and your body better, I think what you're saying is that it gives you something incredibly valuable, which is, you know, just a better integrated sense of self.
Beth (28:13.444)
Mm.
Mm... yeah.
Beth (28:34.788)
Yeah, yeah. And I think that then also helps us to begin to notice, learn and realise that we can grow around whatever those difficult experiences are that, yeah, we can't get rid of them, as you say. But there is there is growth beyond that there is space to hold all of that and to have more as well. So rather than getting rid of we're kind of gaining instead.
Mm.
Beth (29:02.532)
And it's really wonderful to witness when people begin to experience that for themselves, what can be gained and what it's like to be able to begin to welcome in and just allow whatever is there to be as it is. It really, you know, you were talking about regulating ourselves earlier and the kind of the biological impact of this that we can really start to notice the difference in our physical wellness as well.
when we start to let go of the fight or resistance against things that have felt really difficult or challenging to us, emotional pain, physical pain, whatever it may be, when we make more space for that, we really feel the difference in our body. It shows up in how we breathe, in how our body gets activated and our ability to relax.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (29:32.163)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (29:59.62)
And then of course, all of these things then show up in how we're sleeping, in our appetite and how we're eating, how we're able to move our bodies, how we're able to be with other people in relationships. It just really kind of expands out to every aspect of life. So again, it's something that is one reason why I get so kind of passionate and excited about the possibilities for people, because it just feels there's so much to be gained from working in this different level with people.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (30:29.091)
And I wonder when you were saying about that regulation, ability to regulate our body, because I think what happens specifically in grief, especially in this initial stage of early stage of grief, when there's a huge shock to the body and the mind and our body begins to respond in ways that
Beth (30:37.316)
Hmm.
Beth (30:52.772)
Mmm. Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (30:58.915)
is not necessarily very logical or understandable. And then the huge difficulty with regulating back into a state of safety, because usually it's a traumatic response of our body. It's a bit like, I often compare it to, I suppose, this experience of having a car crash.
Beth (31:06.404)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (31:18.372)
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (31:27.651)
and the airbag inflating in the car. And the purpose of this is to absorb the shock. But that experience in itself often produces a form of shock of a different kind, you know. And I often think of that, that when we talk about our bodies and how a body responds to something traumatic like a loss, like
Beth (31:27.844)
Bye.
Beth (31:31.812)
Mm.
Beth (31:38.532)
Mmm.
Beth (31:44.548)
Mmm. Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (31:57.347)
finding out that a partner died or in a tragic accident or giving you just an example. But I suppose any situation where something unpredictable happens is that your body is actually trying to manage this incredibly difficult moment when your whole world, internal world is crashing, your external world is changing massively.
Beth (32:01.764)
Mm.
Beth (32:16.452)
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (32:25.955)
and you just don't know what to do. And I think that that shock in itself is obviously very unpleasant. But I think it's better to have the air back to expand in the car than not having that response and just being hit. You know, driving, I don't know, 100 miles per hour on the motorway and not having that, you know, the chances of surviving are actually higher if you do have that shock response. So I think we often think of that
Beth (32:28.836)
Mm.
Beth (32:38.884)
Mm.
Mm.
Beth (32:46.404)
Mm. Mm. Yeah.
Beth (32:53.252)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (32:55.171)
anxiety or this kind of reaction in the body is something really unpleasant exactly let's just get rid of it you know why is it there but actually is there for a reason because if we're feeling aroused and anxious it's the nervous system response of your nervous system trying to protect us from something traumatic and
Beth (33:03.716)
Yeah, yeah.
Mmm.
Beth (33:18.884)
Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (33:22.787)
I don't know, like, you must be obviously seeing that a lot in your practice. And I definitely see that a lot with my clients that, you know, we don't really understand it. We don't really appreciate what the body is doing. But also we don't know then how, if we can't make sense of it, then we won't know how to address it, which is what you were saying earlier about that body mind connection. You know, can we translate that reaction in the body into something?
Beth (33:27.812)
Mmm.
Beth (33:39.972)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (33:51.715)
something else, but we have to start with the body rather than thinking and then trying to make sense of that this way.
Beth (33:51.94)
Mm.
Beth (33:55.78)
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, because I think people are often trying to make sense of things on that kind of analytical level, on that intellectual level. And when it doesn't make sense to them, they get stuck. And again, this is so understandable, because it's not just about the individual, but a whole cultural and historical way of how disconnected we have become from our bodies that
Dr Monika Wieliczko (34:15.619)
Mm.
Beth (34:28.356)
many people, the vast majority of people, don't really know how to make sense of things from the body until we actively start learning how to do this. And I think the exciting thing is that in recent years, we're understanding this more and more and it is starting to show up in more and more places. So I think that's quite encouraging, but yeah, being able to, again, kind of
notice and understand on a level of what's happening in the body really begins to open up how we can support ourselves most effectively. I think that's often what is felt to be missing and that's often the place people are in when they come to see me. You know they know lots of stuff, they understand lots of things on that intellectual level but they're feeling very stuck in being able to move forwards.
And I think a really big component of this as well is how we treat ourselves in the midst of all of this, how we meet ourselves where we're at. Again, because of how things are often expected of us culturally or within kind of family levels as well, what's acceptable and not acceptable to share with emotions.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (35:47.235)
Yeah.
Beth (35:54.34)
I've just lost my track of thought completely.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (35:57.923)
Yeah, but I'm just thinking what you were just saying, Beth, about just so many layers, I think, of complexity before you even get to the point of feeling. And I really think one of the most profound things I've learned through my years of my personal therapy, but actually
in training as a psychologist for, I don't know how many years, I've lost track really, when you count all the years of training and further education. But one of the most kind of profoundly moving and difficult things that I learned not really that long ago is what you're referring to now, which is that basic acceptance that whatever you feeling,
Beth (36:37.22)
Hmm.
Beth (36:55.94)
Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (36:55.971)
And I think we hear it on a very intellectual level, you know, just accept whatever's coming up, which is kind of a very dismissive, almost like a dismissive or a slightly, I don't know, cheesy thing to say. You know, well, those kind of self -help guides that would, you know, tell you, this is you just accept whatever's coming up, which it's not that level.
Beth (37:08.772)
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (37:24.643)
at which we have to intervene almost, but actually having that kind of permission to just trust yourself, trust that your body knows where to go and that whatever feeling you're having, whatever response you have, and the most, obviously the most kind of basic way how you experience a feeling is in your body. Isn't it? Like it's, it's, that's how...
Beth (37:34.18)
Yeah.
Yes.
Beth (37:48.068)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (37:50.403)
you know, where anger, frustration, sadness and guilt, anything, any emotional state originates, it's actually first felt in the body. Then you've got the cognitive processes that go on and you've got certain thoughts that, you know, kind of go with it. But actually, if we just stay with whatever's coming up in the body first, I just feel like that is the
Beth (37:53.508)
you
Beth (37:59.947)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Beth (38:11.588)
Mmm.
Beth (38:16.228)
Hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (38:19.747)
core of every single problem we have in life. Unless we have that kind of connection with whatever I'm feeling right now, it's almost like you're never going to get to the point of actually understanding and tolerating life, whatever's happening to you in life.
Beth (38:23.044)
Mm. Mm.
Beth (38:30.18)
Mmm.
Beth (38:42.084)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (38:45.635)
And I think that is usually the problem. And whenever I'm thinking about people who are struggling with grief, and some people struggle with it more than others, I think usually those who really struggle with grief or loss, or all sorts of kind of losses in life, is this inability to tolerate the emotional states. And if you can't have the support, if you don't access the support to do that, then you
Beth (38:54.852)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (39:02.18)
Hmm.
Beth (39:06.724)
Mm.
Beth (39:15.076)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (39:15.363)
permanently get stuck in it, don't you?
Beth (39:17.508)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think the good news is, is that we can learn how to do that. We don't have to live our whole lives not being able to be with and tolerate those difficult emotions and challenges. We can absolutely learn how to do that. And it can sound, it can sound very, perhaps,
tricky to some people or even do I really want this? Do I really want to feel these emotions that my whole life kind of distracting and blocking them out? Do I really want this for myself? So I think being able again to think about what can lie on the other side of this once we learn to do this and again knowing that we're not throwing ourselves into it if that's going to completely overwhelm us and again coming back to a nervous system we can just totally dysregulate ourselves by
Dr Monika Wieliczko (39:51.843)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (40:15.236)
throwing ourselves in at the deep end with unblocking when we're not quite ready for everything that can come up there yet. So some people can go there more quickly than others. I think as you were speaking to that, you know, before having some kind of loss, people will already have their way of how they generally manage emotions and what emotions they are used to being able to feel and express and others that.
don't feel so acceptable. When grief comes along, it just really magnifies all of that. So, you know, we all have different kind of abilities and capacities to be with what is and to feel and to express. And we can learn as well how to move more and more towards that. So we start to get kind of a freedom of expression essentially within ourselves rather than feeling kind of trapped or constrained by what we're able.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (40:45.251)
Yeah.
Beth (41:13.444)
to feel.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (41:14.394)
Yes. So what you're saying, what I hear you saying right now, Beth, is that what keeps us trapped is that the fact that we're blocking ourselves from feeling. You know, in that moment, I was just kind of felt it so, it was like in my body, my, it's like, it was like a, like this almost involuntary movement of what happens when something comes up in your body.
Beth (41:27.428)
Mmm. Mmm.
Beth (41:32.036)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Beth (41:38.692)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (41:43.203)
or you feel, I don't know, I mean, I've had, for example, stomach problems during grief. And whenever there was this kind of unpleasant sensation in my stomach of my acids coming up, I always thought to myself, this is just so annoying. I just don't want it to be there. I just want to get rid of it. And what do I need to do? Just take another tablet. You know, it's just...
Beth (41:43.46)
Yeah.
Beth (41:50.98)
Mmm. Mmm.
Beth (42:04.644)
Mm. Mm -hmm. Mm.
Beth (42:12.036)
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (42:12.227)
You just want to carry on with life and the body is telling you, well, you need to slow down. Something is asking for your attention. And what is it that thing that keeps coming up, you know, that we can't deal with? It's just fascinating how we end up just ignoring our bodies throughout our lives. And then, you know, the...
Beth (42:17.188)
Yeah.
Beth (42:22.756)
Hmm.
Beth (42:27.492)
Mmm.
Hmm. Hmm.
Beth (42:36.516)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (42:41.891)
physical health problems, right, you know, so many of them are greatly influenced by our emotional lives. So if we are not able to deal with anger, for example, that often will show up in how your different organs of your body function. And then we think about, you know, the stress and the impact of stress hormones on our heart, for example, like you often
Beth (42:44.004)
Mm.
Beth (42:49.796)
Yeah.
Beth (42:57.252)
in
Beth (43:01.604)
Mmm.
Beth (43:08.164)
Hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (43:10.595)
hear that actually, you know, the broken heart syndrome. So what happens when someone dies? You know, especially if it's a life partner, I mean, I don't know the statistics exactly, maybe you know that better, but that there is a high risk of people dying and having heart problems when
Beth (43:11.012)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Beth (43:23.812)
Mm.
you
Beth (43:33.54)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (43:35.107)
they've lost someone because the stress actually, I don't know exactly the mechanism. I think it is that the stress hormones affect weakens your heart muscles and you're more likely to die because there's unprocessed grief there, isn't there?
Beth (43:36.868)
Mm.
Mm. Mm.
Beth (43:44.836)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's, yeah, again, you know, you're talking about the shock earlier as well, that there can be, you know, really kind of immediate effect of this as well, as well as that prolonged effect on heart functioning. And yeah, I've seen the statistics before and I can't quite recall what they are now, but yeah, it's not an uncommon reaction at all of the heart to be affected in this way. And I think particularly in the older,
adults, I think the, again, I can't recall the percentage, but over the age of 65, I believe the percentage really kind of shoots up after the loss of a life partner, that health problems start to emerge. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, really, it can have really quite a profound effect on on organ functioning. And I think this is where the breath becomes really relevant again, as well, because
Dr Monika Wieliczko (44:31.427)
Yeah, yeah, within the first year, I think. Yeah.
Beth (44:51.98)
how our heart is functioning and how our whole kind of cardiovascular system is functioning is also affected by how we're breathing. And as you were talking about stress, we really see stress very strongly reflected in how we're breathing. I think most people, when they think about it, have had an experience of this, that when they're feeling really stressed and whether they recognise that as
Dr Monika Wieliczko (45:14.851)
Mm.
Beth (45:18.787)
being really angry or really frustrated or feeling overwhelmed, like they can't cope, really anxious, whatever type of stress it is. When we start to notice how we're breathing, it's often from this really shallow place in our chest, rather than using the full capacity of our lungs. And that has an impact because when we breathe from here, we're first of all using different muscles compared to when we're doing a
a deeper breath and that creates a lot of tension around this area. And so it's quite common. I see people talking about having tension in this area. And then when we start to notice their breathing, we start to see that connection in how, how we're breathing in the shallow way. And often people say they feel like their chest is tight. That's because they're recruiting all of the muscles here when they're breathing from a place of stress. And when we begin to learn how to deepen and lower the breath to deeper down in our
Dr Monika Wieliczko (45:49.155)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (45:57.667)
huh.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (46:07.491)
Mm.
Beth (46:18.596)
diaphragm and use the full capacity of the lungs, that actually we can get a deeper level of breath with a greater volume of oxygen that can be sent all around the body and oxygenating the whole body, which helps all of our organ functioning as you were speaking to before. So I think it can be so helpful to look at breathing patterns and learn how to ring about a slower
Dr Monika Wieliczko (46:37.187)
Mm, mm, mm.
Beth (46:48.068)
deeper breath as well. And that isn't always easy work that can be really difficult for people to pay attention to their breath. It can be anxiety provoking in itself. So again, sometimes that is a very slow, gentle piece of work of learning how to do that. And sometimes it's enough just to suggest to somebody, maybe try out some breathing practices and learning how to breathe on this kind of deeper, fuller level. And sometimes people were able to kind of do that on their own as well.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (47:13.859)
Yeah, exactly. And that, you know, there are a couple of things that came to my mind as you were talking. One is about what happens when we can't breathe and the stress response and the knockoff effect of stress, which is, as you're saying, the breathing gets shallow, but also
the inflammation in the body, so the kind of this permanent state of stress in grief, I think in huge, huge amount of that comes from, again, from inability to process feelings, and then they accumulate and the body is in constant state of tension because something doesn't get released, as you're saying, the emotions not being processed and felt, which then leads to
Beth (47:38.18)
Bye.
Beth (47:50.308)
Hmm. Hmm.
Beth (47:57.956)
Hmm.
Beth (48:02.532)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (48:05.379)
Yeah, in inflammation in the body and we know that inflammation is a source of all sorts of diseases, especially autoimmune diseases and that includes cancer. So actually what we know is that addressing your body, addressing your emotional states can have a massive positive impact on your physical health and possibly, you know, you might live longer if you actually address your mental health.
Beth (48:08.484)
Yeah.
Beth (48:14.468)
Hmm. Hmm.
Beth (48:21.732)
you
Beth (48:26.82)
Yeah.
Beth (48:32.452)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (48:34.595)
your emotional well -being. But that's not something we really talk about. It's almost like the disconnect is so severe that we just go, you go to a GP or you see a doctor, specialist, doctor, a consultant, and they talk about your body, but in a very kind of physiological way. But no one's actually naming the feelings in the body or what might be manifesting through your illnesses and tension.
Beth (48:53.38)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (49:05.315)
For example, I remember having had the stomach problems and I spent a lot of time going back and forth, seeing my doctor and I knew it was to do with grief and I had this awareness and I was working through it. But I remember kind of, almost like needing to make sure that nothing's happening there in the body and kind of...
Beth (49:16.26)
Mm.
Beth (49:20.74)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (49:32.58)
Hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (49:32.739)
I remember when I had my endoscopy, when they go take the camera and go down and check your stomach lining. And soon, quite soon after I had this done, I noticed quite quickly that my symptoms started to reduce. And I think it was almost like a confirmation that my body was reacting to something else, that it wasn't to do with...
Beth (49:36.612)
Hmm.
Beth (49:48.676)
Yeah.
Beth (49:52.964)
Hmm.
Beth (49:56.74)
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (50:00.323)
something malicious going on in my body, which was obviously a real concern of mine, especially after I lost my husband to cancer when he was only, I think he was diagnosed when he was 39, stage four bowel cancer. So it's a real threat to the body. And then obviously your mind goes into those dark places and you often start to identify so much with the experience of loss of someone so close to you that
Beth (50:02.82)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (50:10.596)
you
Mmm.
Beth (50:17.828)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (50:21.7)
Mm.
Beth (50:29.732)
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (50:29.891)
you do end up thinking, feeling that you're going to die and your body is in an alert state and it's very difficult to translate back and separate things out. You know, does that belong to me? Does that belong to someone else? Where is that sensation coming from? And so, yeah, so I'm not kind of saying that medical profession doesn't play a role, but I think it has to be, as you were saying about integrating those different aspects.
Beth (50:33.572)
Hmm.
Beth (50:37.476)
Mm.
Beth (50:42.564)
Mm. Yeah.
you
Mmm.
Beth (50:59.332)
Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (50:59.587)
and seeing that kind of connection between the body and the mind and how they couldn't be improved, that connectivity and how much that helps with moving things along and processing loss. It's just mind -blowing that we don't really talk about it more enough.
Beth (51:10.436)
Yeah. Yeah.
Beth (51:16.356)
Yeah.
Mmm. Mm -hmm. Mmm. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (51:22.947)
It's just quite shocking really.
Beth (51:25.54)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, I wonder if, you know, if you would feel able to say it all a little bit more about when you started noticing or how you met yourself in those moments as well, how you approached noticing these, these different symptoms showing up and the thoughts that were coming up about them, because that must have been really, really tricky and probably in a different place of your journey of grief now, but.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (51:46.387)
Yeah, yeah, I... Yes, yes. I mean, I always knew it was to do with grief, but it's almost... I think it was terrifying in many ways because you don't know where that comes from and that kind of not being able to locate your... the source. I mean, I think in grief, you get that a lot. I mean, there were different parts of my body that I was suspecting of either cancer or...
Beth (51:54.66)
Mm.
Beth (52:00.292)
Mm. Mm.
Beth (52:07.364)
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (52:15.491)
So it wasn't just my stomach, you know, when I had a pain in my breast, it was, I'm going to have a breast cancer or, you know, all sorts of things or the preoccupation that something's going to affect your lungs or, you know, that there's some something dangerous out there that it will damage your body. Because obviously, if you're talking about terminal illness, it's something you can't control. It's completely out of control. Something that happens to you and...
Beth (52:15.78)
Mmm.
Beth (52:20.58)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Beth (52:29.06)
Yeah.
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (52:42.691)
I think that was my way of trying to make sense of what goes on in my body, the pain, the different parts of my body trying to communicate that to me. And I did actually use a lot of yoga and running to help with that, just kind of connecting with the breathing and the stress of it all. And I remember kind of just, I mean, I've practiced yoga for many years now, so it hasn't been like a new...
Beth (52:46.084)
Mmm.
you
Mm.
Beth (52:56.996)
Hmm.
Beth (53:06.084)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (53:13.027)
thing for me when I was grieving, but I remember often having this kind of dilemma or do I have time to practice something? Do I have time for my body or do I need to worry about my dying husband? And it just, there was always this kind of conflict, but I remember after he died, I think yoga was one of those things that really helped me to connect with what was going on in the body and how just traumatized my body was and just
Beth (53:22.244)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Beth (53:33.668)
Mmm.
Mm. Yeah. Mm. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (53:42.531)
needing to be fed, someone to look after me. I did a lot of kind of, I was in Thailand a few months after he died. So I've spent three months traveling and I remember having a body massage almost every day because I think I just needed someone just to physically attend to the body. So the first level of self -regulation and processing the trauma was really about, you know,
Beth (53:44.164)
and
Hmm.
Beth (53:57.86)
Mmm.
Mm. Mm. Mm -hmm.
Beth (54:10.596)
Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (54:11.843)
someone feeding me, someone massaging my body, practicing yoga, it was all to do with physical manifestations of grief. And after that, I was able to actually think and talk and process things in therapy, but that kind of stabilization phase almost of working through the trauma of loss, because it was a traumatic loss in my case, it was really to do with the body. And which is why I feel so
Beth (54:18.148)
Yeah.
Beth (54:22.756)
Yeah.
Beth (54:28.164)
Hmm.
Beth (54:32.132)
Mm.
Beth (54:36.516)
Yeah.
Beth (54:40.132)
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (54:41.795)
I think it's such an important element that we bring this in. It's not obviously everything, which is why I think you bring that your angle is to, you know, to including body, body practices, bodily practices with the psychology. And I think that is the missing bridge because I mean, as much as I love yoga, I don't think that yoga in itself would be, I don't know what you think about it, but to me wouldn't be enough.
Beth (54:45.7)
Bye.
Beth (54:51.812)
Mm.
Beth (54:58.212)
Yes.
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (55:10.307)
It's essential and it's that first step, but it's what you do with this later on that really matters.
Beth (55:10.756)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm.
Beth (55:18.34)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think it kind of depends on quite a lot as to, to what degree yoga could support people in their grief and what they're kind of particularly needing and also what types of yoga practices they're doing and who those yoga practices are with. There's quite a lot of elements to it, but I think something that, yeah, that is right is that we're really trying to integrate here.
We're not saying we shouldn't do talking therapy anymore, but actually there's so much more to be gained from when we integrate it with looking at the body as well. And again, that's where we get our best wisdom from is when we're able to connect that cognitive level with this somatic level, what's happening in the body and we feel more aligned with ourselves when those two things come together.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (55:50.563)
No.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (56:11.043)
Mm.
Beth (56:12.1)
So yeah, I think the body is like a gateway really to, as you were saying, to them being able to later talk about things in talking therapy. And sometimes it might be in like a sequence like that. We work with the body first and then we do talking therapy. The way I work tends to be they're very much integrated together. So in a session, we might spend time doing kind of somatic explorations.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (56:19.971)
Yeah.
Beth (56:39.204)
focusing on the body, noticing what's happening, maybe doing some different practices and then we come back to and then how does this make sense on a cognitive level? How do we begin to understand this on that more intellectual level? So we're bringing both pieces together and I think that helps to enable people to move forward and be able to
Dr Monika Wieliczko (56:49.827)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (56:55.363)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Beth (57:04.9)
actually find more answers for themselves and to be able to problem solve more for themselves. So they don't, you know, when they come to me, I'm not giving them solutions, but rather through helping to connect mind and body in this way that they can begin to find their own solutions that come from, from their own wisdom within. And I think something else really important you said there actually, which maybe we haven't spoken so much about was about touch and the physical touch.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (57:24.867)
Yes.
Beth (57:34.084)
from another person and the care that is given through touch in that way because again I think in UK culture in particular we're really very not very touchy touchy -feely at all and I remember reading some research a while ago where they were comparing people from different countries in social conversations between two people and noticing how many times they might make physical contact during the
Dr Monika Wieliczko (57:46.883)
I'm a little bit of a cheat.
Beth (58:03.012)
the conversation. And I think it was the UK and the US was zero, maybe maybe once for like the UK or the US. But it was either zero or one. And then in other cultures within the same period of time, it would be like 100 times. And that might be just tap on the arm or you know, hand on the shoulder, holding the hand, it could be all kinds of things, right, but we are so lacking.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (58:22.275)
you
Hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (58:29.699)
Hmm.
Beth (58:31.332)
again that connection with other people at the level of touch and also with ourselves as well and our ability to hold ourselves with physical touch as well. It really doesn't surprise me at all when you say that this was such a huge part of your healing was to receive the physical care that touch from another person because this also goes way back to the earliest part of our life when we're born.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (58:34.723)
Mm. Mm. Mm.
Hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (58:47.683)
Mm. Yeah. Mm. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (58:59.107)
Yes. Soothing. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Beth (58:59.62)
when we're babies, that all of our care is given through that physical touch. We're totally dependent on our caregivers. And so everything is communicated through how they are holding us through that physical touch, through feeling the body of another person and their nervous system, helping to regulate our nervous system. That's, as you say, how we develop our soothing system, our ability to soothe ourselves.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (59:12.291)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (59:19.555)
yes.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (59:27.907)
Hmm.
Beth (59:28.228)
And we're not always going to be able to soothe ourselves when we're really, really overwhelmed and in a state of shock, you know, and things like this, having the support of another person that co -regulation from another is what is going to be most helpful. And touch is such a huge part of that, but it feels like that's so lost again in our culture.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (59:42.691)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (59:47.01)
Yes, exactly. But I was also thinking, especially after loss of a life partner, because a lot of touch comes from being close with someone and being in a relationship. And then, you know, we know that it helps with regulating and bonding, you know, oxytocin and reducing the stress hormones. And when they die or they're very ill, that kind of closeness is almost
Beth (59:54.052)
Mmm. Mmm.
Yeah.
Beth (01:00:05.796)
Mmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (01:00:16.675)
completely gone and where do you get that back from and how do you, yes, almost like craving touch and physical closeness is such a big part of it. So I think it makes sense that our body knows what it needs and what's missing if we have that kind of awareness. And I was just thinking again about how important this is in a way to
Beth (01:00:18.436)
Hmm.
and
Beth (01:00:25.284)
Mm.
Beth (01:00:28.996)
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (01:00:46.179)
to hold that in mind that our body knows the answer and if we dare to listen to it and we've developed that language which is where I suppose you come in, how you kind of bringing that bridge between body and mind which is so fascinating, especially I'm thinking grief and profound loss is such a difficult aspect because it is about the absence of the body of another person that we're grieving.
Beth (01:00:48.164)
Mm.
Beth (01:00:54.308)
Mm.
Beth (01:01:00.84)
Yes.
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Beth (01:01:08.196)
Mm.
Beth (01:01:13.252)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (01:01:14.947)
not just the mind but also the body and that becomes so crucial. So in some ways the grief happens in the body because it is about grieving the body that's no longer there and it just makes so much sense when you think about it this way why we have so many physical symptoms in grief and how hard this must be for people to then process. But I wonder
Beth (01:01:19.332)
you
Beth (01:01:23.044)
Mm.
Beth (01:01:27.364)
Mmm.
Mm.
Beth (01:01:34.916)
Yeah.
Beth (01:01:41.252)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (01:01:43.746)
Beth, whether there are any kind of tips or I don't know takeaway messages or advice on how to practice yoga or somatic processes that you would want people to take away from this or you know, utilize later on in life or what they can, where they can go, what they can do with it.
Beth (01:01:47.684)
Hmm.
Beth (01:01:57.988)
Hmm
Beth (01:02:06.188)
Yeah, yeah. So I guess, first of all, the thing that always comes to mind for me when I'm talking about using yoga in this way, is that, like I used to have before I ever had an experience of it myself, I think a lot of people perceive yoga as being about a practice of fitness and about being flexible and that you often hear people say,
I'm not flexible enough to practice yoga. And I think that's just such a unfortunate kind of misconception of what yoga can offer and what yoga is. And it doesn't surprise me at all that that's how, like I said, I myself used to see it in that way as well because of what we see so much on social media, for example, when actually
Dr Monika Wieliczko (01:02:34.979)
Hmm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (01:02:46.307)
Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (01:02:50.851)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah.
Beth (01:03:01.252)
yoga, I mean there are eight branches to yoga but often the main one we think about are the postures, that's just one branch of yoga, there are always other parts to it as well. So first of all if somebody is quite interested in exploring the whole roadmap, because I do see it as a roadmap in what yoga has to offer and approaching all layers of us, you know physical layer,
Dr Monika Wieliczko (01:03:09.667)
Mm.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (01:03:22.211)
Mm -hmm.
Beth (01:03:30.5)
emotional layer.
Dr Monika Wieliczko (01:03:30.915)
just gonna, sorry Beth, I'm gonna have to put.