Monika (00:00.494)
Welcome to a guide to afterlife, your go-to podcast for the young and widowed. This is your weekly space to help you live through grief. I'm your host, Dr. Monica Velichko, psychologist and your fellow widow. I'm bringing psychological skills to boost your resilience and help you make room for life while you grieve. Listen in to insightful conversations with grief experts,
and those touched by a profound loss. Together, we challenge the way people think about grief, offering hope of life after loss. Expect honest stories of loss and creative ways to overcome grief challenges. We tackle common widowhood issues such as relationships, parenting, dating and social isolation. Each episode gives you access to hand-picked resources and tips on difficult emotions.
upsetting symptoms, where to seek support and how to help children grieve. Join the conversation and become a part of the Grief Revolution.
In today's episode, we're talking about sadmin, which is dealing with all unfinished admin business around death. And with me today is Emma Gray. Welcome, Emma. Hi. It's great to have you here today. And I was wondering whether you could say a few things about yourself and what got you interested in talking and doing your fantastic work around all the admin surrounding death.
Yeah, thank you. So I think where it starts is I was a Wills and Probates lawyer. So ironically, my day job was death and dying. I'd done all the exams, spent years doing it. And my specialism was kind of elderly and vulnerable adults. So as a result, there was quite a bit of end of life admin that was involved. My husband was in the War Marines. And I think my bereavement journey, it started in 2013.
Monika (02:04.43)
when after a year of niggles, my husband was diagnosed in December with oesophagal cancer. I googled it and he didn't want to know his lifespan, but I googled it. And I think as a Royal Marine, he thought he'd fight it and beat it and be the miracle and all the rest. I googled it because I needed to know. And I thought that he'd only lived for months, but he managed two and a half years, lots of chemotherapy, radiotherapy.
antibody drugs and all the rest of it and some lovely bucket list days as well. But sadly he died on the 11th of July 2016. I managed to keep my job, admittedly I went part time and reduced my hours quite a lot, but I kept it going through six houses in six years when he was in the military and he was away a lot. I kept it going through his illness and I had quite a bit of compassionate leave, but I went back after his death.
But then I realized I felt like I was doing two jobs badly. So I was struggling to be mum because I was spending hours in the office. And then I was struggling to be a lawyer because I was spending time at home. So because we'd been organized, partly because of my background in the legal world, partly because of his risky job and hobbies, we'd managed to put me and the kids in a position of kind financial stability. I had enough income to
kind of keep us afloat, no mortgage, no debt. And as a consequence of him being organized, the gift really to me and the kids was I could hit pause on my work. I did that just kind of saying that I wanted to spend more time with the children and sort my house out because I've made a few changes, including moving closer to school so the kids can be closer to home. But
It kind of just didn't fit without him. So I said, I want to sort the house out, be with the kids, spend some time, just hit pause for a minute and process my grief. Cause I think those years three and four can be really hard, or at least they were for me. Anyway, what happened then is about two, three weeks after I'd stopped work to spend time with my kids, we went into lockdown and boy, did I spend some time with my kids. And I actually felt a bit guilty because I wasn't a key worker.
Monika (04:20.622)
and going and signing wills through windows and all the rest of it. But I'm not sure in hindsight whether I would have managed the emotional and mental load of all of that. Anyway, so the rainbow hunting concept, which is my Sadman company name, was actually born when Simon was still alive. And someone asked me, what is it like living with someone who knowing that they're going to die. And I said that it's a little bit like the weather. You have days that are cold and wet.
and miserable and you think they're never going to end, but you've got to keep some faith and some hope that the sun and the stars are still there and they'll come out and you've got to go chasing your rainbows. And it's also a little bit about enjoying the little things in life. But what I realised is those things are much easier to enjoy when everything else is organised.
And actually, I have quite a crazy brain. So all the organization is actually to try and put some order in amongst a bit of disorder. So I initially started by blogging, sharing my story under the Rainbow Hunting name. And then I've become a coach and I mix my fascination in mental health and mental wellbeing with the legal experience and through courses and workshops and also some training for corporates and stuff like that.
What I do is I try to help people with two things. One is growing life around grief, because I don't think the grief ever goes. You just learn to build a beautiful new life around it. And then the other is organizing what I call the saddmin. And the saddmin's got two kind of halves. So one half is like our saddmin. So it's our will, our powers of attorney, all the stuff we put in place should everything happen to us. And the other type of saddmin is their saddmin. So it's the post death.
It's the probate, it's the utilities, it's the personal possessions, it's the digital legacy. And I hold people's hand through all of that because I think that that connection and that help and that support just isn't out there like it could be. That's quite a lot to get your head around, isn't it? Just that kind of complexity of grief that you were trying to kind of summarize. But I think it's so valuable hearing that perspective.
Monika (06:34.008)
Coming from a position of someone who, you know, as you said, was dealing with end of life business for a very long time and then being in a position yourself of having to come to terms with that is obviously quite a different experience, isn't it? But I was thinking what you're describing is this anticipatory grief. So what happens when we grieve before we lose someone? So your story is obviously in some way similar to mine.
because my late husband was also diagnosed with terminal cancer and we had about 18 months of that period of, you know, preparation for this. And I don't know for some people, as you're saying, it's like you mentioned, you knew you didn't have much time left and in the end you had more than you were anticipating, but your late partner obviously was hoping that he's going to beat the cancer. So kind of this...
different kind of perspective, I suppose, what I'm hearing. For me, it was kind of similar that, I mean, in some ways, initially, maybe we were in this kind of denial stage that maybe it won't happen or maybe somehow initially we were given the chance that he could still survive, meaning that he would live longer than a few years. That's what the survival means these days in cancer treatment, really, which is quite shocking when you think about it.
But it was this kind of, for me, was this slow realization that it's going to be terminal, that he's going to die. And I think for him as well, that he was actually not emotionally in touch with it, but mentally, I think, preparing himself for death. And I feel really, in some ways, because of my experience, is really interested in this anticipation of grief and the grieving that happens before.
or someone dies because I do think that it's a huge part of that process is really what we're talking about is grief, which is like slowly losing that person in that process and preparing for inevitable end, which is death. And in some ways, what you've been describing about that preparation is also involves that kind of practical preparation, isn't it? And I wonder what that process was like for you. You had this kind of beautiful analogy of the rainbow.
Monika (08:52.302)
But I suppose I wanted to kind of slow it down a bit and kind of get your perspective of what that was like for you. You know, as you said, family and a husband who was obviously very ill and so much waiting for death. Yeah. Do you know, my journey is quite interesting really, because Simon obviously was diagnosed in December 2013, but I think I started to worry about him at the end of 2020. But if I'm really brutally honest.
My anxiety went through the roof the moment I met him because bizarrely I had a sense that he was never going to be mine for a long period of time. I just thought he would either die on operations and get blown up somewhere or that he would die doing one of his crazy hobbies because he did have some fairly adrenaline filled hobbies. And then when the niggles started, I'll not forget, we went to Egypt in February 2013.
And it was the first time in a long, long, long time that he was pain free. And he'd been going to physios and been going to this and going to that about some backache. I felt like a mum with a sick child. I was like, Sigh, they haven't got it right. And I just had this, I don't know whether I just had a seemingly unhealthy anxiety or whether I did have a sixth sense. So bizarrely, when he was diagnosed in December,
kind of confirmed my worst fears and I was really black and white from the moment. Like I will never forget the first oncology appointment. He phoned me up and he said, well, for starters, he had to have a bunch of tests. So within one week he had an endoscopy, a PET scan, a CT scan, all blood tests, all sorts of stuff. He basically was in hospital almost every day.
And then two weeks later, they called him in and they were really cross with him because he was working in London doing quite an important job and he was away. And so they were outside their window for him to come back and have his results. And he called me up and he said, this nurse phoned me. She's really cross with me for going away and they want me to go in for the results. I said I'd go in, but they asked me if there was anyone else. I told them I could take Padre, but they said...
Monika (11:07.854)
do you have a wife? And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, yeah, thanks, Cy. Remember the wife, like I'm here. So he phoned me up and I drove down to London to go to this. And I'll never forget, we walked, we went for a meal first and his swallowing was so bad, he could only have soup. And we walked past the wig shop into oncology and we were easily 30 years younger than everyone else in the waiting room. When they told us, they told us at that
first meeting about his cancer, but they also said we need to do one more operation to see about whether this is spread because if it's spread there's a game changer here. And afterwards we walked down the hospital corridors and it was almost empty because it was an end of the day appointment. And I'll not forget he was leaning on me with his arm over me and my arm around his waist. And he said to me, thank you. And I said, what are you thanking me for? He said, if you hadn't pushed so hard.
We wouldn't be here. We wouldn't have been told this. I'm going to fight it. I'm going to beat it. And I just remember thinking, I don't get how you haven't heard this. You're dying. Like, you're going to die. And it wasn't until that further operation when they confirmed that it had spread and they confirmed that it was all over the peritoneum of his stomach. Plus there might be a patch by his heart. And it was in the lymphatic system and in his lymph nodes. So my anticipatory grief almost was pre-diagnosis.
Yes, and I think what you're saying is that it's really, in some ways, good to have that time to come to terms with what's coming up, but it also can be quite a torture and something that is very difficult to, in some ways, to even comprehend and live in that state, this state of dying. And in some ways, for me, it was that period of time that was
much more difficult because of the trauma of the treatment and everything that was involved and the very complicated operations and recovery and chronic pain and all of that. it was just constant and very poor quality of life for him and for me and, you know, almost kind of constantly sustaining his life through different interventions and my care. So of him at home and pain and.
Monika (13:30.016)
and feeding all sorts of things that were involved. But that kind of slow, although on the other hand, it might feel really fast, process of watching someone die bit by bit is really difficult. It's really, really tough. But then as you're saying, you know, is this other person actually dealing with what's happening or are they disconnecting from it? And I think from what you're saying is that he really wanted to believe that he's going to
fight it and he's going to win, which I wonder whether you've got some thoughts about how that affected you and, you know, and that kind of preparation for death in a way, because how can you prepare for what's coming? And I think that equally refers to what happens before death, but also after death, that kind of almost like denial, the state of denial that it's not happening or I'm going to fight it or I've got the strength, you know, and what you left with then.
as a person who's supporting someone, I'm just kind of thinking about this image of you, him putting his arm around you, and you almost like supporting him around his waist and thinking he did not hear what they just said. It was really hard, especially having been a Wilson Prebate lawyer and
knowing that sometimes it can be frighteningly fast, but sometimes people can live on and on on and on and on with cancer, which is just amazing. But it's amazing and heartbreaking in equal measures, because as you said, you're slowly watching them die. So I think I did a lot of very subtle in the background work, just trying to capture kind of the what ifs, you know, if this was happen, what would you think?
if that was to happen because also I wanted to know for the children like what kind of school would you want, how do you want the kids to grow aware, what kind of legacy and then it wasn't until he finally and this was possibly in the last six months maybe not even more than that of his life he suddenly realized he was dying and then he kicked into the prep.
Monika (15:40.12)
quicker than you. But of course then he was lacking energy and also any video blogs he did by then he was very, very skinny. And so I haven't dared, eight years later, I haven't dared watch them because I now remember him as fit and healthy and I don't really want to go back to watching him being really skinny and poorly. But in those last six months, my gosh, did he put effort into it. He did memory boxes, he did video blogs of what he put in the memory boxes for me and for each of the kids.
He wrote letters to key people, including his mum and his dad and his sister, as well as me. He did birthday cards for the children. He left anniversary cards for me. He left a letter for me to open after he died, which, to be honest, has been the biggest handrail of my life, because a couple of the things he said in that letter have kept me going in my darkest, darkest days. And it was almost like the battle was a battle for,
He wanted to be remembered. One of his biggest thoughts is he was terrified of being forgotten. But the legacy he left was just beautiful. And we had conversations about his funeral. And I think sometimes it makes that time left over so, so, so hard because it brings the death into sharp contrast. And sometimes it makes it easier because you know the other side, you know, and it is that emotional handrail that can just be amazing.
But I did a lot of crying, a lot of crying in his lifetime. And I think a lot of tears. In one respect, it's sad because it casts that cloud over those experiences. But on the other hand, every day counted. used to say to people that every day he's alive as an extra day, the children might remember him. And that was so, so, so important. And to be, try.
and be better prepared. I don't know, it helps. It makes a tricky time much easier, but those conversations are not easy when they're alive. And sometimes one person is further ahead in their head than the other. And I think I certainly was further ahead than Simon. So I was wanting to have these conversations and he wasn't ready. And one of the things that really upset him was me and the kids moving on without him.
Monika (18:06.434)
And that was hard. And that to this day is still very hard because it's hard for me to kind of truly move on knowing that he didn't want me to move on, if that makes sense. And yet if someone suddenly you don't get to learn that kind of stuff. So it's hard, isn't it? It is really hard. And I think I can completely relate to what you're saying. And part of me was really moved by
This account of him really trying to catch up with the fact that he was dying towards the end and rushing and thinking about you and the kids and the family and that's really moving. That wasn't really my experience. I think for many different reasons. I mean, I didn't really have children with my late husband, so there wasn't that kind of extra element, I suppose, but I think he was.
so unwell and so heavily medicated that I think it was very hard for him to be present. And when he was, I think he was just in denial. And I felt like I had to do all that business for him on his behalf. And I remember having to push really hard to sort out the basics, like the will. And that was a really difficult thing to work through because, he didn't really want to.
sign any documents because it was a way of confronting himself with the fact that he was dying, I suppose. So that was very hard. But then I was just thinking how hard everything turned out to be. When I look back at it, as you were saying about your partner almost like struggling with the fact that you're going to move on with your life, he's going to die and you're going to continue living and the children's going to continue.
living without him. I think that is something that is very difficult to come to terms with because there is no permission. And I think that that sense of not having permission or a certain expectation that you almost should be grieving. I mean, I remember having that conversation with my late husband where he said something like, know it's going to take you a long time to grieve, but eventually you're going to...
Monika (20:27.298)
move on. It's almost sounded like an accusation. And I think that that really did block a lot of my grieving process because I was really angry with him for expecting that I should grieve longer. And I think that really slowed down this process because if there's a lot of anger and on the one hand, is an expectation that you should grieve from the society point of view. There's another expectation that you should move on. That's another thing.
It's an impossible situation to be faced with as a widow. In some ways that really, as you say, blocks this kind of experience of coming to terms with the loss and sorting out this unfinished business. And part of it is sorting out the admin, the what's been lost, you know, kind of letting go of the clothes and some of the belongings and sorting that stuff out. What do I keep? What do I let go of?
I mean, that's a huge area. I think, as you're saying, think many people really struggle with their tough to loss, especially, I mean, I don't know what you're thinking is supporting people in grief, but for me personally, it's just, it is this process of grieving that involves exactly this sorting things out, letting go of certain ideas of certain belongings, kind of, you know, and paperwork itself.
signing off certain documents, closing down accounts. I every single time I suspect you go through this process, yet another document, yet another phone call or a conversation with someone, a bank or utility bill or whatever needs doing, it's a really painful reminder that someone's gone and that you are a widow. Yeah, it's really fascinating because obviously I did probate as a job.
And so I said, you know, I'll do Simon's probate, I'll go back to work, I'll be absolutely fine. I knew he was going to die and in a very black and white brain, I was like, so I've already been grieving for two and a half years. And I'll be fine. whilst his death wasn't a surprise, it was still a monumental shock. And what was a shock was kind of my reaction to it. And, and also how physical the grief was, I literally felt heartbroken.
Monika (22:50.412)
my heart felt broken, my heart was hurting. And that really, really surprised me. And like you say, with the probate, know, Simon's estate wasn't massive, it wasn't complicated. There was enough to need to do a probate and all the rest of it. And in the office, I would have been almost a bit kind of like, why is she needing a lawyer to do this? This is really straightforward. But as a widow, like you say,
every time you close something down, it's almost like losing another part of them. But it's not because one of the most important things in grief is the continuing bonds and is having a new relationship with the person who's died, I think. So, you know, they are no longer physically with you, but you can have emotional bonds with them that endure forever. No one can take your memories away from you.
And you wouldn't want your grief to shrink necessarily because you wouldn't want to lose the person that you've loved. And I think it's really important. One thing that really helped me was someone who was a decutter expert came to help me sort my stuff out. Because I think doing this stuff on your own is really, really hard. And sometimes your friends and family, they're too close too. And one of the things she said is if you keep everything, then nothing is special.
And that really helped me. That made me think actually, the smelly socks and the underpants, I don't need them. You know, if I keep everything, then nothing is special. So just work out what's really special. What's special, yes. Yes, but I was also thinking, yes, you don't know what's special, what's really important to you, what was meaningful. But there's also a reality of the fact that if you don't let go of something, something's there.
there won't be space for anything new to develop in your life. there won't be space for other relationships, for you as a person who's just discovering this new life and how that changed you. And if we just stay in that frozen state, and sadly, this is something that for many people who have lost a life partner and other form of losses too, they just remain in this almost like frozen.
Monika (25:12.682)
state where nothing's changing and any introduction of something new or something that brings new life into the world is seen as yes something killing off that person but i think what you tapping into this really important is that recognition we need to separate out this two very important facts one is what happened to us when that person died and coming to terms with
that experience, but also what's left of them. And I think that process of transitioning from a denial of the loss and trying to desperately keep that person alive in our mind in this unchanged form is obviously detrimental to our lives. And it takes a while. I initially it's that process we're in, you know, and you have to keep it alive.
And slowly as times go by, you deal with this unfinished business, you go through the paperwork, you do address those practicalities of the loss as well as the mental, the psychological load. And as you're saying, what do I keep? What's meaningful to me? But also what is it, what is important to let go of and make room for something new in life? And that's incredibly difficult process. And I suspect you get a lot of
people who coming to see you, who are facing this dilemma and really struggling to come to terms with the loss. Because, you know, I think what's hiding underneath that admin list or a bulk of work you need to do is obviously the psychological, the emotional unfinished business, which is much harder than just calling someone and sorting out the paperwork.
And do you know, it's really funny, or it's not funny, it's interesting. I was talking to a friend whose mum died just this morning, and I was saying to her, no disrespect to professionals like I used to be, who are Wilson Probate lawyer, but in all my years of being a solicitor, I was never not able to work my way around a legal problem. There was always a solution. You know, it may have been a bit more costly and timely if someone wasn't very well prepared.
Monika (27:33.304)
but I always found a solution. What makes it complicated is actually not the legal stuff. It's our thoughts and emotions that make it really hard. And one of the reasons I set up Rainbow Hunting was as a lawyer, I had a Libra Arch folder, you those really thick ones, ring binders with an A to Z in it. And they were all people who had approached me for a will and never come back again. So they know they need to do it.
And it's not difficult, it's just going to a lawyer and signing your name on a piece of paper that says who gets what. Yes, the blended families and to a point in certain roles, but once you've made a decision, it's not hard. What makes it hard is the emotions and the thoughts and the feelings. And they are really hard. And that's the bit that I love to work with people because there's always a solution.
But I say the solution is in the client. It's not me. I don't fix anything. don't find answers. They've got the answer inside them. They just need someone to help them find it. Yes. And as you're saying, because it's then it's in black and white on a piece of paper that there's death in the picture. So they're anticipating our own death when you're preempting the possibility that someone might die or knowing that someone's dying. But when people come to see you after someone died, it's
to the confirmation that they actually died. And I remember seeing this post on Facebook in one of the social groups, someone saying, well, I can't open the post, can't look at the death certificate. Just another way of putting it, I can't accept the fact that they died. And I can't move past that point until we do that, until we come to terms with reality of our situation.
It's just impossible to live. find that it just everything gets disrupted in us. As you're there are so many obstacles to living life after loss. And it's it's a real struggle, I think, because, you know, like we saying earlier, I think it's impossible to do it by ourselves. Like it's you need the support system around you to do it, whether that's your family or, as you say, a lawyer or
Monika (29:54.636)
someone who actually understands the predicament and the difficulty you're experiencing, but that sorting out side of things needs to be a shared experience, I think, because we can't grieve on their own. Like, it's just not something that you can just do in the background, in your own head. It has to be something witnessed and shared, and, you know, and I was just thinking about the massive task in front of us.
those who are grieving or the significant loss. It's just, I don't think that people quite realize just how much work is involved in grieving and sorting things out. So having that expectation that you have to do it yourself in your own home when no one's there, it's just never gonna happen. It's just impossible. think most people living in our culture where everything has to be so private and, you know, count on your own, you have to just...
deal with it somehow move on wherever the formulation is in our heads what needs to happen but that's physically not possible and I think what you're bringing in here Emma is this idea that there is a solution that there is a way forward and that is not all great and also what I'm hearing from you
is that there are good things to be rescued from our grief. You can throw away the dirty pants and a pair of socks, but there are other things worth keeping. no, definitely. And one of the gifts that Simon Dying gave me was I kind of stopped caring about what the world thought and finally started to...
sort of be the person that I really wanted to be. Not that I wasn't when he was around, I think he saw me. But I do think that there's good that can come out of it. And it's that whole post-traumatic growth thing, isn't it? You know, the strength that you realise and you have through experiencing something really, really hard. But you know, I'm eight years down the line now. And when you said about like in black and white, it can be really hard.
Monika (32:11.99)
I'll never forget going to register the death because I'd registered deaths before in my job. You know, I'd gone, I'd registered death. It was just filling in a few names on a piece of paper. When it wasn't anyone I knew, it was quite straightforward. But when she, a really bizarre twist of fate, the registrar had been a Wilson-Probate client of mine. When she looked the definition, I know really weird twist of fate, but when she put my description in the book,
as widow, you could have hit me in the face and it would have been more comfortable. It literally knocked me sideways. It was the first time I saw in black and white, widow, and I was like, that's my label now. Yes, I have a very similar experience of sitting in the office and waiting for the paperwork to be completed. And this woman I've never seen before just typing up the details in a very kind of statured way because for her that
That's no meaning. She's doing this every day, every hour of her working day. And I was thinking that just seems impossible. Like you need to kind of detach yourself in some ways in order to actually perform this task, which is what's required of you. One of the first things you actually have to do legally, you have to do in order to arrange a funeral and everything to take place. So
Probably one of the first time you really confronted with the reality of your situation and as you said this whole widow label I I have such strong feelings attached to it so much resentment for how it's being perceived and and talked about in our society was expected of a widow and the different sets of expectations from widow and from
a widower and this whole idea of having being broken and empty because the widow comes from this phrase of being an empty vessel, which in itself assumes that if you're and that's not the same definition for a widower. So actually the origin of the word is different. And I think this is this expectation that there's nothing left in you. You're completely empty. And in some ways that does depict the experience of loss that you've lost something.
Monika (34:37.154)
But it's different, the fact that you've lost a part of yourself, than feeling like you're all completely gone, and you're just an empty vessel. Yeah. And I think one of the pivotal moments in my grief was shifting from being heartbroken that he'd be gone, to finally realizing I was blessed that I had him in my life, and that we have the kids.
that I got to share a bit of time with him and go on adventures with him and do what I did with him. There'll always be a sense of emptiness, especially with the children. But that's also why the saddimin is so important to me because so often it's people who are our age who don't do it.
and I don't know whether they don't do it. There's so many reasons that I've spoken to people that they don't do it. Often the reason they don't do it is exactly the reason that makes it important for them to do it. But actually if everybody talked about death and dying, you know, we're all going to have a 100 % success rate at the end of the day on death and dying. Sadly, it's something that will happen to everyone. So you're not going to hasten it.
by doing it because you're going to die someday sadly. And I understand why that's very hard for some people to get their heads around. But I just try to share with people what a pivotal difference the saddmin has made to our lives in the hope that it will encourage others to sort themselves out and to from a
point of view to make it easier and from an emotional point of view to provide that metaphorical handrail that is going to help people through that. And it has been for me, it's been in my darkest moments that I've gone back to what he said, I've gone back to the letter that he wrote me. And some of the stuff he wrote in his letter that he wanted to hit the memory of him to be like a comfort blanket. And when he first died, I was like, there's absolutely nothing comforting about the fact that he's
Monika (36:47.008)
couldn't get my head wrapped. And then I was like, actually, I love a comfort blanket because it can be folded away in the corner of the room. But it's there for me to snuggle into, snuggle into and remember the memories rather than, yes, I'll cry occasionally, but more snuggle into and remember the memories from more of a rose tinted perspective of we got to have him with us for a bit of time.
So having that gratitude for the years you've had. think what is the cost of unaddressed grief, the frozen grief, I call it, is when we throw away the truth about the fact that someone died and we kind of, almost like we tried to kind of keep them alive in our minds, but in a kind of this kind of unchanged form, meaning that, they are, they are
still there, I can't imagine that they died. So that is the kind of the states that you described after he died, and you couldn't imagine that the comfort of the blanket. So if that continues, and we live in that state for a long time, then it's impossible to get hold of the good things. Because everything gets tainted. This, this idea that the loss is so all encompassing that
It doesn't allow for anything valuable to be recovered from it and separated out. I think that is just such a fundamental task of grief, know, sorting things out, keeping certain things in, valuing them and using them as a comfort blanket, as you're saying, literally, but also metaphorically, but also, you know, letting go of the things, yeah, you know, literally,
admitting to ourselves that this person is no longer there with us. And by sorting out all the admin stuff, we are in a way being repeatedly exposed as much as it's unpleasant, but we are being repeatedly exposed to the fact that that's the case. now, in some kind of cognitive ways, our brain and our mind are learning that that is the case and that we slowly incorporating that into our
Monika (39:07.03)
internal map of the world. And it's such an incredibly difficult and long term process. But if it's not completed, we're never going to be able to live a life of the loss to the fullest, you know, to reach our potential. And, you know, which is why it's, think, as you're saying, so important that we are making room for death in our lives. And what you were saying earlier about, like, everyone should be doing this, because essentially,
When we deal with our own mortality, we are also allowing ourselves to live more meaningful lives. And that's the only way because you were talking about your late husband, how he was in denial about his death. we all live like that, our lives, you know, in the state of denial, I'm not going to die, something's going to happen, they're going to find a cure or, you know, you're going to be immortal. think we all, remember having this fantasy when I was
in my 20s, even beginning of my 30s, you know, before COVID, was like, don't think about the future because everything's going to be fine. And, and then you can't really appreciate life for what it is. And that is the biggest gift of loss of my late husband is that I do really appreciate things more these days. And, I do value my life more and I don't want it to go to waste. And that is the cost of unaddressed
grief is that you are going to waste your time. The most valuable resource of all. Yeah. And I think there's so much in enjoying the little things. So in my darkest days is when I started my Instagram account way, way, way back. And if anyone's never bored and scrolls all the way back to the beginning, it was always about taking photos of little things that brought me joy, whether that's the sunshine on a frozen cobweb.
or the reflection in the river or going to the seaside or whatever it was. And it was fascinating because I really believe that what we focus on grows. So the more I focused on the good stuff, the more I saw the good stuff, and the more I focused on emptiness and the loss and this massive void in our lives, the more I got sucked in. But it's something that you have to learn for yourself.
Monika (41:33.964)
rather than tell you if someone had told me, I'm not sure I would have realised. I had to kind of find my comfort on my own. Yes, exactly. And as you're saying, it's about finding a way to live your life alongside your loss, as opposed to trying to get rid of one or the other, you know, because it is possible to integrate both into the same life. Still these days, it's bit of a sometimes.
eight years down the line when people say, you still talk about him so much. I'm like, he's my kid's dad. Doesn't mean other people aren't coming into my life. Doesn't mean I haven't created space for other people. It just means, I guess the only thing I equate it to is having another child. When I had my first child, was like my love for that child was so great, I wondered how I could ever.
find enough love for anything else and actually my husband was pretty jealous of our own child which was a little bit bizarre. I think most people are, know, when the child comes around, And having a second child, it wasn't like I loved this first child any less, I just found equal love for the second child in my life and I think that's the same kind of thing. Your kind of heart expands to find the love.
for more things in your world. And I think sometimes getting close to death can bring the joys in life into sharp contrast as well. You can have this desire to want to feel alive and to actually enjoy what you've got left of life. And I suppose that brings me to thinking more about where do people start with sorting out their sentiment? Like what
What are your tips for our listeners in terms of, you know, where do you even start dealing with your set-min? You know, might be the right time or the right point to start doing that? There's some stuff that has to be done. So like you said, there's a tight limit on registering the death. You need to register the death in order to be able to organise the funeral, be able to do the probate. If there's inheritance tax due, it has to be done within a certain timeframe.
Monika (43:49.038)
So I think the most important thing is to break it down and to work out what are the practical things that have to get done, that absolutely have to get done. And that's your priority. And sometimes they can even seem massive. So sometimes they say, what's the one thing I can do? So a little bit like registering the death. It may just be Googling and finding the telephone number. And that is one step closer.
then picking up the phone and making the phone call. So it's breaking it down and sometimes it's about setting aside the emotional stuff so that you can get the practical stuff done. And the other is to have passion. Like I know people who were bereaved many years ago and when I say many I mean 10, 20 plus and they still have bags of clothes in the attic. If you're not ready to get rid of it, you're not ready to get rid of it.
It's about doing what's right for you, like you said, to create the space you need to live the best you want to live now. So that's why I separate the growing life around grief, which is the emotional stuff, the saddmin, which is very much the practical stuff. And you are, mentioned earlier, you have developed this online course called Saddmin. Can you say a bit more about that? Yeah, I'd love to. So
The idea is it's a membership area. People can log in and they've got little videos from me and those videos are broken down. I start to make sure that people are okay first in themselves so you know they're looking out that they're sleeping properly and all the rest of it. Then when you've got the foundations out the way the next idea with is the legal because there are timescales on some of the legal stuff.
Then there's the practical. So then we're thinking about utility bills and membership. Then there is the health stuff and the digital stuff. And then last, I do the emotional stuff, but I talk people through it. I break it down. When it comes to letters, there's like precedent template letters that people, there's checklists, there's bits and bobs, and then there's group coaching. So once a week, there's an hour's group coaching.
Monika (46:05.814)
And I think that's probably the most valuable bit is that people get to come and chat to me and talk about what's the hardest bit and what they're finding tricky. And it's fascinating because often it's the emotions that you're getting in the way of sorting the practical stuff out. And there's a Facebook group as well so that everyone can support each other in a given. And we will put some links to your website in the show notes so people can have a look and check.
there is anything that they can use and find out more about your course. But such an important way of supporting people in this kind practical ways and kind of, as you're holding their hands and giving them encouragement that it's doable if you're in the right set of minds and you've got the right type of support and yes, and just kind of getting on with.
unfinished business, which is so valuable. And yes, I mean, it's just kind of what you were saying about finding the right time to let go of certain things. And it's probably something that we have to go through throughout our lives, bits to let go of bits to keep and appreciate. And yeah, the ongoing work of grief, isn't it? And at the moment, worst I've had for a number of years is the saddling courses sorting our own stuff out.
But there's also a course that's coming is about the post death of Saddam. So it's the same concept, but it's being there to support people as they sort out the saddam of someone who's died. And for the one to ones, I help people with anything related to this. I've even had someone come to me when her husband has been alive, wanting to know what she needs to do when he dies. So she had a check.
So like anything to do with this. I hope I close the knowledge gap and I think you're right. I hope I empower people to believe they can do it. And yeah, thank you so much, Emma, for just bringing all that knowledge and your own personal story, which is, you know, in some ways really inspiring to hear that you have been able to utilize all those assets and your skills and grow something that you feel so passionate about and helping people.
Monika (48:28.416)
sort all that shit out, which is essential in moving on and moving with life. I nearly called it sort your shit out. Yeah, you should have made it. Yeah, maybe a different version of it. Yeah, why not? It is full of shit, I'm afraid. But it's so important. It's not all shit. I think that's the takeaway message. There's so much goodness in that that needs to be recovered. So I really hope that people found it useful and I'm sure they did.
I definitely did. Yeah, so thank you so much for today. thank you so much for inviting me on. It's been lovely. Thank you for listening in. I hope you found it useful. Please stay in touch by subscribing to my podcast and leaving a review on your preferred platform to help other widows grieve and live. Check out our show notes for links to helpful resources or go to guide to afterlife dot com to find out more and take part in the grief.
your first eight course for grief. Join us next Tuesday for yet another stimulating conversation.
