Season 2, Ep 3. What Happens to Adults Bereaved as Children? Insights from Mandy Gosling, Psychotherapist.

Season #2 February 04, 2025

Our conversation with Mandy Gosling on childhood bereavement explored the profound and long-lasting impact of losing a parent in childhood. Mandy's personal story and professional insights shed light on how early loss shapes our lives, often in ways we don't fully realise until adulthood.

Key Points to Reflect On:

Children grieve differently from adults. Their grief may not always be obvious, but it's deeply felt and can resurface at various life stages.
The impact of childhood loss can manifest in adult relationships, attachment styles, and coping mechanisms.
It's crucial to keep the memory of the deceased parent alive, especially for children. This helps in their grieving process and identity formation.
Grief work can happen at any age. It's never too late to address unresolved childhood loss.

For those who have experienced childhood bereavement or are supporting children through loss, this episode provided valuable insights and a sense of validation.

Don't forget to subscribe to A Guide to After Life podcast list to be notified of more conversations about navigating grief: https://www.guidetoafterlife.com/podcast-signup

- Take part in the Free Grief MOT to find out if you are stuck in a state of shock or whether your grief is progressing and does not require professional help.

- Book a free 15-consultation with me to discuss the results of your Grief MOT

- Find out about Grief Group Therapy that I offer

- Unsure whether to see a psychologist, psychotherapist or counsellor or grief coach for grief support? Read this blog post to find out more.

- Find out more about grief support

Your Host’s BIO:

Dr Monika Wieliczko, Chartered Clinical Psychologist D.Clin.Psych, MSc, MA

Psychologist by profession, and a widow, in private.

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Mandy Gosling

Mandy Gosling is a UKCP and MBACP accredited psychotherapist, researcher and author, specialising in long-term grief experienced by adults who were bereaved as children.

As a bereaved child herself, aged 9, Mandy completed a MA Research in 2016 to understand the long-term impact of childhood bereavement. ABC Grief – Adults Bereaved as Children, was formed from this research to share knowledge and resources for individuals, and professionals, in this specialist area of bereavement and grief. Her central focus of private practice is working with individuals who experienced childhood loss and she runs workshops in London. She is the Clinical Lead at It’s Time Charity who supports young adults with the experience of parental loss and facilitates their group therapy.

Mandy publicly speaks on this topic and is a contributing author in the anthology entitled My Mother’s Story – Gone Too Soon. She has been published in articles for BACP Therapy Today magazine, and UKCP New Psychotherapist magazine, highlighting the long-term impact of childhood bereavement. She has been interviewed on BBC Woman's Hour and has contributed to various podcasts to bring awareness to this topic. Mandy has been part of the All-Party Parliamentary Group alongside the charity Winston’s Wish for childhood bereavement.

She is currently undertaking her PhD at The University of Humanistic Studies in Utrecht, Netherlands, under the guidance of Prof. dr. Geert Smid. This investigation is to add to the scientific knowledge of long-term grief in adults who were bereaved as children. She is also a wife, Mum to two adult children and Nana to two grandchildren.

Resources:

For more information, visit www.abcgrief.co.uk or www.mandygosling.co.uk or the social media platforms below:

linkedin.com

https://www.instagram.com/abcgrief/

Mandy Gosling Psychotherapy & ABC Grief

facebook.com

Episode Transcript

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[00:00:07] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Welcome to Guide to Afterlife, your go to podcast for young widows. I'm your host, doctor Monica Velitko, a psychologist Mandy your fellow widow. Each episode brings you insights from world renowned grief experts and authors discussing complex grief issues and their personal experiences of loss. My aim is to challenge the way you think, empower you to face your feelings, and help you develop resilient ways to grief. Move beyond surviving each day and visit guide to afterlife.com to take part in the Grief MOT, your first aid program for grief.\
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[00:00:49] Dr Monika Wieliczko: In today's episode, we're talking about children who've been bereaved and what happens to them as they grow and develop and turn into adults. So I think many parents who've experienced loss of a life partner have been struggling and thinking a lot about what happens to their children as they grow and develop and the impact of loss of a parent in the trajectory of life of their children. So I've got a very special guest with me today who is an expert on adults bereaved as children, a psychotherapist who specializes in working with adults who've experienced profound bereavement in childhood, and also a founder of a resource, a website that provides support for adults bereaved as children, abcgrief.co.uk. So welcome, Mandy.\
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[00:01:48] Mandy Gosling: Hi, Monica. Nice to see you again.\
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[00:01:50] Dr Monika Wieliczko: It's lovely to see you. I've been really looking forward to, this conversation after the the first one we had a week ago when we just, I think, clicked on so many levels. And I thought, well, this is this is gonna be a great great episode, partially because it's such a neglected topic and such a meaningful one that no one really speaks about. I don't I haven't met anyone else actually in our community who knows this much about this area and is willing to share Mandy and and your passion and compassion is really quite striking. So I I really hope that a lot of people who are listening to this episode who either experience a loss of a parent in childhood or have a child who've experienced a loss will benefit from it. So if you could maybe say a few things about yourself, how this idea came about, and also just introduce yourself, what you do, how you work.\
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[00:02:54] Mandy Gosling: Thanks, Monica. I mean, I'm I'm hoping it will reach both of those audiences, people with with children so that they can understand. And also, you know, if anybody knows anybody who is an adult bereaved well, because I think even for us, it's a really neglected topic. So I think we just need to talk more about the long term impact of childhood bereavement and what that may may look like. So my mother died when I was 9 years old in 1973. So it's a long time ago. And of course back then things were different. I mean, we still have a way to go now with, you know, progressing, support, and understanding. But back then, yeah, you just kinda got on with it and nobody talked about it and, life continued without really understanding. I mean, I don't have a great deal of memory of that time. I mean, obviously, I was hurled into this sort of traumatic space. I'm an only children learnt how to kind of cook, feed myself, work it out. I mean, I had a really great grandmother who would come once a week to do things. But, yeah, it was not it was not discussed. It wasn't discussed at school. It wasn't discussed really with my remaining parent Mandy that was about it really. My grief probably is compounded. So after my my mother died, my father did leave the area when I was 18 Mandy then that was really profound having that sort of secondary experience. And then I live with my grandmother and she died when I was 21. So really everybody that was close to me was either dead or not there. And so I sort of began adult life in probably a really tricky situation which I hadn't really given credit for until I became a psychotherapist because I crashed through life in many ways, had lots of symptoms that were, you know, anxious and hypervigilant Mandy, and looking back, sort of dissociative tendencies. And it was a lot harder than I perhaps imagined it it should have been. So it wasn't until I'd always been interested in kind of how people worked. I think there was probably an underlying factor of I wanted to understand how I worked really. So I read my first psychology book when I was 20 but then didn't come to training until my mid-40s. And that that really opened up where I am today and the work that I do. And I really just let it evolve on blind faith and did my initial training of 5 years and then I did my masters, which was my first piece of research to try and understand the long term impact of, childhood parental bereavement. And that was when I thought, why is this not really addressed in the way I'd hoped it would be addressed? Mhmm. And that's really where I led to. After that, I founded ABC Grief. And it's really just been sort of from the grassroots up, you know, talking to people, podcasts. And where I am today I'm doing my PhD research on the topic in the Netherlands. So it's been it's been an interesting journey but one that I absolutely love, I believe in passionately, I believe in what we need to understand so so we can support adults of today but also the children that are coming through. You know, that they will all be adults who are bereaved as children.\
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[00:07:00] Dr Monika Wieliczko: You\
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[00:07:00] Mandy Gosling: know, you can't, you can't, you can't separate them in any way. Yeah. So, you know, of course there's lots done in the child's space but there's lots that can't be done in the child's space Mandy I think that's the important part to recognise. Yes.\
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[00:07:15] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. And I remember when we had this conversation before, that was one of the most striking elements, this kind of recognition that there is a trajectory of grief that is very different to in children, I mean, is very different to how adults grieve Mandy and that is connected with how the child's Mandy, brain, body develops. But also that we often, as a society, assume make a lot of assumptions based on how the child behaves and whether they grieve or how they grieve, which isn't correct. So I think this is very important conversation to be had about Mandy probably one of many really, hopefully, will allow us all to think about what happens to that child who lost a mother or father at the age of 7 or 9 or 3 or who've never met their parent as they grow and develop, as they turn into adults, and how those losses impact those different developmental stages in life, which, you know, I think you got such an incredible way of talking about it that comes obviously from your lived experience, experiences of loss, but also this real curiosity of yours, which kind of comes out in those different ways. And, you know, and I think that's why we're clicked so well because, you know, it's just this kind of curiosity about how about this? How about that? You know? Never thought about that actually this way. And I think that's what makes this conversation so rich and interesting that you can just connect with it in a really vulnerable and wholeheartedly way.\
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[00:09:04] Mandy Gosling: I mean I I I would say curiosity is the key completely to it. We never know what will surface, you know, the grief symptoms in or the trauma symptoms. You know, when I run my workshops I always say to people always expect the unexpected because we don't know what will get constellated in the psyche that then brings more to the surface. And I I kinda liken it to the, you know, the first the first level and then, you know, things come in and create this sort of perfect storm that then more will come and then and then it will be okay for a while Mandy then, you know, a bit more will come Mandy it was it's a it's a ever Gosling spiral round the the grief trajectory. So you can't say, well, if you do this and this, it will give you this.' Mhmm. Because there are so many different factors to each individual's story. I mean, you know, I work with people daily. No two stories are the same. I mean there's certain themes. But everybody's journey is as unique as their fingerprint Mandy I think that's what we all must must be curious about. And think about whether what your listeners are seeing in their children is 'I wonder if' or what needs attention?' To just be curious whether it might be something grief related or trauma related or development related, you know, that has been impacted by the loss that they have experienced. Mandy I know we have we have minds that want rationale and we have minds that want things in nice neat boxes. This is not like that in any way, shape or form. It's not neatly tied up. It's just to be curious about what someone might see. It's what I do as a practitioner.\
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[00:11:12] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah.\
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[00:11:12] Mandy Gosling: Like I just go in with a curious mind. Mhmm. Could it be? Is it possible? So that you don't miss it really.\
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[00:11:20] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. But that that is a crucial bit, isn't it? Making that connection\
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[00:11:25] Mandy Gosling: Yes.\
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[00:11:26] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Bit between, you know, certain difficulties that we experience in adulthood Mandy how that could be shaped by our childhood experiences of loss. But but I I'm kind of thinking about your experience of working with adults, bereaved children who've experienced parental loss. What do you normally notice about these children and then young adults? What are the kind of if we were I know we obviously that everyone's very different, but there are certain themes or certain predispositions or ways of coping that children are likely to kind of go into or yeah.\
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[00:12:06] Mandy Gosling: In terms of Gosling, I think that's quite individual but you'll sometimes see coping strategies that might not be healthy coping strategies. So people might turn to substances or they might turn to heightened control in a way, you know, maybe things have to be a certain way. It makes them feel safe because when a parent dies their world is turned upside down. So there will be ways in which they cope. So they would maybe shut off from their feelings or they would adapt into perfectionism. So they often don't look like grief symptoms as we would perhaps as adults see. They will be ways in which they manage. And so you might see, you know, perhaps younger- and I'm- and I don't work with younger children so it's not my space. But thinking about some of the things I would have done in my own journey so I can say clearly. I ended up in adult life with a highly perfectionist way of functioning, which was really tiring. Lack of vulnerability, not being able to see that I could ask for help or needed anything. I was just, well, there's I got used to nobody being there so I just would do it by myself. And I still do that today if I'm really honest Mandy I'm still working on it at 61 years old. But I've learned a lot along the way of the things that have been structured in me that would you just kinda go to a slightly imbalanced way. So it's the imbalance of coping. You know, people do turn to alcohol Mandy drugs and unhealthy relationships. There are just so many ways in which we learn to cope because we have to Mandy they then follow through in adult life. I would say one of the main things that I would see is people struggle in relationships because it's an attachment disruption. And that would either be they would avoid relationships or they would be incredibly clingy in relationships. There are challenges in self regulation. So there's, you know, maybe a lot of anxiety or there's a cut off, so sometimes more low mood or depressive symptoms. And I've, recently I've kind of realized through working with lots of people as there's a different type of anxiety. I've kind of like, you know, as I sift through everybody. So so there is a general anxiety but there is also dependent on how the parent died. So if there was a health related death, often people will have health anxiety. Or if there was, say, an accidental death or a sudden death, it would be more around that way. I mean, that's just some of the things that I've noticed in different types of anxiety.\
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[00:15:19] Dr Monika Wieliczko: But that makes sense, doesn't it? That it makes perfect sense that you will be focusing.\
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[00:15:25] Mandy Gosling: Yeah, yeah. Whatever happened, there's the fear still that, Mandy mine, mine is still like that, mine is still like that. I mean, mine's much more manageable but but you know I will say some unusual things from time to time which are certainly I know where it's related to. So health related. So often when you become an adult they don't look like grief symptoms because we think that grief looks like sadness perhaps. You know, when we cry about, you know, the person that we've lost. But these are all the the little little pieces that sit around it all. They are often from that primary loss but they are they don't look like grief. And that's why I think it gets missed because these are symptoms of coping strategies or what we're trying to assuage those feelings that we put in place or the fear arises, say, from the trauma response that then gets kind of mixed up. And I mean I certainly didn't I remember, you know, as a therapist I had to go and have 4 years of psychotherapy in my training Mandy I remember walking in and thinking, well I don't know what I'm going to talk about for, you know, those many years' because I never I actually did not know what I was carrying. And it took me a long time to get to the point where I was able to process what had happened to me as a 9 year old. But it was all these little bits and pieces, you know, people pleasing, just just sort of general dysfunction Mandy, you know, I was because I would say sometimes we look a bit odd. We can look we do strange things from time to time, but they are absolutely right if you are a bereaved child. And so we need to understand what that looks like in real real life terms. You know, I have to have things a certain way or I can't leave home or I can or I have to leave home.\
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[00:17:39] Mandy Gosling: Or, you know, I can't be in relationship or I'd like to really have children Dr I definitely don't want to have children. Like all these things that come in adult life with adult life choices. You know, there's these polarities that exist. Yes.\
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[00:17:53] Dr Monika Wieliczko: And I think what you're saying as well, Mandy, is that those things start to unravel as we grow and develop because we reach certain stages in life, which are fundamental in connecting to those past experiences of loss. So, for example, when, you know, something significant happens in life Mandy, you know, as you said, I think you named it as the perfect conditions for storm to take place. It's something that kind of accumulates in us. So we might have developed certain capacity to cope until then, and then suddenly something erupts. So it's not necessarily kind of, that the person as aware that this this could be grief coming up as you're saying, but but when you start digging into these things and taking those layers, out and, you know, and getting Gosling to the bottom of it, Obviously, it's not to say that it's just related to the loss of the parent, but it could be other things connected with that as well. But the core of the problem is, you know, is the fact that that that person prematurely lost, one of the primary attachment figures, which is so fundamental in keeping us safe, in keeping us centered in life. And, you know, it's about survival, isn't it? So no wonder we respond so vividly, you know, physiologically, mentally, psychologically.\
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[00:19:23] Mandy Gosling: And I think what I my my my most as is people a little bit further down the road. I mean, I do work with a charity called It's Time Mandy they I work with them with group therapy for young people. I do that sort of preventative grief, try and help them understand what it might look like going forward. Mandy they work they work up to age 30. And then I I kind of work beyond probably most of my people I work with are beyond 30, because they were of a generation where you definitely didn't talk about it. I mean I mean think many years ago people would be like, well you just you just grieve for a couple of weeks and then you're done.' But this is a this is a lifetime grief Mandy I'm not saying it's overwhelming for a lifetime but it will pick its moment to surface if there is unresolved issues. So for example, sometimes, you know, when I'm thinking about younger people, sometimes when they leave home there might be a fear of leaving that remaining parent because, you know, their survival mechanism of, you know, being in a safe parental environment while I'm leaving that parent. The anxiety that might come from that is, well what if something happens to them then how am I going to survive? So if they go off to university, you know, maybe at 18, they would they're still in their developmental process and there would be a genuine stirring of that. And also them being away from home, you know, there would be potentially, and I'm not saying this as in everybody, these are potentials, these are pieces of information that might, it might be, it's being curious as I say. It's just that curiosity of I wonder if. Mandy then they might get into a relationship and they might not want to then not attach or they might not want to get into a relationship. I mean I've seen many adults who have not never been in a relationship or they've stayed with their parents or they're really much older and can't leave home. Or they've decided that they definitely want to have children really young or they definitely don't want to have children because they fear that they their children will experience same or they fear that they will die of the same age of that their parent died. And so you start so numbers are really important to understand. So my mother died when she was 36. I actually had an autoimmune disease start at age 36 and I was really unconscious. I never even tied the dots up but my body system knew what the timeline was even if I didn't. And so you start to see these patterns in numbers Mandy then when your children reach the age you were or you reach the age, you know, your your parent as Mandy so you start seeing Mandy then I had it when I became a grandmother, which I was not prepared for. Looking at my daughter with her daughter Mandy suddenly it hit me that I had done that Mandy I suddenly didn't realise, oh my gosh, how did I do that? And suddenly there was another wave. You know, it was it was I was I mean, I've worked on all this, you know, for a very long time Mandy I was kind of going, wow, that's really interesting that that's resurfacing. But then if we know that that's a possibility, we can prepare for that. Yeah. And my daughter's 36 next year And I can already hear it in the wings. So I am prepared just to see whether anything Mandy whether I'm prepared and nothing arrives, then I've just been prepared Mandy I'm not unconscious. And when you're prepared, you can walk with it consciously throughout your life.\
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[00:23:21] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. And that makes such a difference, doesn't it? So we're not necessarily saying that, you know, some of it can be voided or that there will be any catastrophic outcomes from it, but it's just the awareness of it can make such a fundamental difference in the trajectory of your grief and and potential, mental health impact of that loss later on in life. So as you're saying, there's something about connecting those events or connecting how your body responds, how your, you know, how you how you're thinking or what what becomes a preoccupation of yours can be so fundamental in in changing that that trajectory Mandy preventing something more developing from from that.\
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[00:24:06] Mandy Gosling: Absolutely. I mean, awareness is the key Mandy it kind of what we do in, you know, therapy is to to tie the dots up so the you can't you can't ever erase it but you can walk alongside it so that you understand this will always be a part of you. But if you know that it's a part of you and you accept it's a part of you and not try and push it, you know, into the wings, then it makes life bearable.\
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[00:24:32] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. And and I think there were a couple of things you mentioned that I would love to circle back to. Specifically, you know, I'm really struck how little we think about those children who are left with the parent, with the other parent who's still alive Mandy that relationship Mandy how that develops Mandy what happens between the mother or the father who stayed alive and that child or children who kind of create that kind of family unit without that parent Mandy all those kind of, well, I suppose challenges that come with it. I mean, you you mentioned a lot of children struggling to leave the parental kind of in a way, struggling to leave the home because partially because they take up certain role, don't they, in in the family that is very different. And we've actually recorded a episode 2 in season 1 with someone who actually now adult child, 19 year old, who experienced that and spoke about those experiences. It's a very interesting conversation, so anyone listening interested in finding out the experience of young adults. Speaking of those experiences, it would be really, really interesting to hear, but that kind of role of taking up certain position in the family. I remember actually in this interview she talks about being placed in the front seat of the car, whereas her younger brother was at the back seat of the car Mandy kind of being, not super identified because I think that was actually a very healthy family unit in many ways, but kind of taking on certain roles, certain responsibilities, which as unavoidable when one family member suddenly dies, you know, some some other people can have to take it take it on Mandy, you know, and then there's something so rich about that, Mandy, about what happens to the child and how this relationship becomes perhaps closer, but also maybe more complicated in some ways because there's one fundamental family member missing.\
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[00:26:42] Mandy Gosling: I just think it's complicated anyway. You know, if if a main the main caregiver dies, it becomes complicated. And then you have to try and navigate the way through that. I mean, children are hardwired to please their parents. The way I tell them it is like, you know, when you've got 2 parents, you've got you've got a 100% there. You know, like your all your needs are met, hopefully. Your survival, your safety, a 100%. You have one person die. Your odds reduce to 50%. So you're gonna ramp it up and make sure that the remaining parent is okay in that adaption process. We're hardwired to do it. You you you can't, it's like you can't tell a child not to do it. They're hardwired to make sure and please their parents.\
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[00:27:33] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Because as you're saying, their survival depends on it. Yes.\
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[00:27:36] Mandy Gosling: Survival. Right? Your survival depends on it. I've got to make sure you're okay so that I survive. So it will be complicated. I think if the adults around that child know that they might be able to pick some of that up. You've got to just observe and see whether it's a normal sort of developmental process, you know. I'd like to lay the table for you. Or Yeah. It's beyond, say, a normal trajectory. Because those that's when children will just keep doing and keep doing to make sure that parent is okay Mandy that all is very lovely and looks very lovely. But there's then a lot of pressure on the child and that takes them away, say, from other parts of themselves. The child more of the child self where they feel relaxed and able to do something. But I think it's really difficult because it's part of who we are as humans, you know, and to get through our development out the other side into adult life and we will do whatever that takes, you know, to do that. But I think if the adults around the child can observe that and see whether it is a little bit off, you know, if there's any other children, you know, in comparison or they know family members, you don't have that same setup. Because then we can praise, oh, you do really well cause you do all these things. I mean, you know, I learnt to cook very early on and learnt how to kinda get but that was taking away from certain aspects of myself. My education was really compromised. My ability to be with friends because I was thinking about what I was gonna cook for dinner in the evening. And whilst that looks great, it it takes away from the normal child development of being carefree. I don't know how you you get that apart from the adults because the child will just do it. So the adults need to be informed about, you know, keeping that in balance. But, of course, it's very difficult for the adult or the remaining parent too because they are often still in their grieving process. So as there an answer? No. It's not tied up in a nice neat box. I think it's just to be aware of some of these things that can take the child away from what they need. Because what they're doing in that moment is not allowing vulnerability or not being aligned with themselves.\
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[00:30:18] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Exactly. And I think that is so fundamental what you just said, because I was thinking, often in those traumatic circumstances, when there's loss through death or any other form of loss, it could be also through divorce or some a parent who's not is ill and not able to kind of step in. It could be all different kind of scenarios that will have a similar rest or they struggle as you say, they're struggling with their own grief or they're, you know, simply at work a lot of the time because they have to provide, you know, food on the table, they have to, you know, look after the basic needs that obviously, there as enough space for those psychological needs to be met at all times. And, you know, that's just the reality of it. We can't be perfect parents.\
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[00:31:03] Mandy Gosling: It is. I mean, there is a harsh reality to it, Monika, you know. It's like someone's missing and someone has to kind of like, who's gonna fill or part fill those shoes? But I think what's interesting to observe from that is all of these aspects will then translate into the adult. You know, whatever complexity you see Mandy some of it you can't it can't be helped because there's a very real practical issue too, you know, about everybody's got to try and survive as best as they can.\
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[00:31:38] Mandy Gosling: And so there's a very real practical and psychological development happening in the child that then translates into the adult. So for example,\
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[00:31:51] Dr Monika Wieliczko: well,\
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[00:31:51] Mandy Gosling: I've got to take care of everybody so that everybody's alright. So like a child might see a parent, like they have to work more perhaps or they're not so available so the child will fill that space Mandy they will do it automatically perhaps. Or not causing troubles. We've all got to survive this. But then what happens as an adult is you then over care for others. Now that doesn't look like grief but that's that's how it became created. So Mandy then you get things like burnout or Yes. You know, an inability to tap into vulnerability because I've just got to keep going. So they can be subtle but also hugely influential in how we function as an adult.\
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[00:32:40] Dr Monika Wieliczko: No. No. And I think I think where I was going with this as well is that I think what makes the difference in how the child can then later understand those processes is whether the the the parent can acknowledge what the child is doing. And I think rather than it being fueled by this fear of I'm gonna lose my other parent if I don't do this, which is often unconscious thinking that unless I do this Yeah. Unless I'm in complete control of what is going on in my life. So it's this kind of omnipotent thinking that I can stop things from happening if I put my own needs on hold, if I focus on making mommy or daddy happy. And I think it doesn't necessarily have to look like the child is doing all the chores in in the kitchen and looking after younger Gosling, but it could be the psychological processes that are taking place at the back of their Mandy that are about not causing problems, being a good student, never complaining, being this kind of good good good child that's, you know, does really well in school, doesn't cause any problems, and you're thinking, oh, look how resilient that child is, how well they're doing. I think these are the children that really struggle the, you know, somehow the most because they've never been allowed to be Gosling, to to be understood from that from that position. And, you know, it's just really quite a difficult place to start to have those conversations unless it's being acknowledged openly that children grieve in a different way. But, you know, that awareness that's often lost when we're immersed in this initial stage of grief, you know, has to be regained somehow maybe a bit later in life or, you know, that that this acknowledgement needs to take place at some point.\
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[00:34:28] Mandy Gosling: Yeah. I mean and this and this is not to be negative in any way. But, you know, and it's based in information I've gathered and read about. But I would say that even if people have get it, you know, virtually right in the child's space or they get support or the family gets support. Absolutely. There will still be work\
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[00:34:54] Dr Monika Wieliczko: to do. Absolutely. From as\
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[00:34:55] Mandy Gosling: an adult.\
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[00:34:55] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Mhmm. And\
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[00:34:56] Mandy Gosling: and that's not and that's not to say it's a bad thing. It's just to acknowledge that there will be things that arise because of what happened. And therefore, if we know that, then there can be signposts to the particular people that would be able to support an adult with Mhmm. Childhood grief. And that's not to be it's all doom and gloom. It's not doom and gloom. We just know that this is what happens because not everything can be supported in the child's face because there are survival mechanisms at play. And they won't show until the perfect storm comes where something arises, something happens that then activates unprocessed material to be processed.\
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[00:35:57] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Absolutely. Yes. That makes perfect sense what you're saying. So it's a it's a difficult balance to strike. 1, about kind of this awareness as the child develops and how they need to be supported, but also, I think what what you're saying is that it's about also taking away the pressure from the parents that they can't fix it. They they Mandy they can't possibly be responsible for providing and meeting all the needs of the children who've lost another the other parent. That, in fact, that you you need the whole group of people to fulfill those different roles that the mother, the remaining mother or father cannot fulfill Mandy kind of having that shared ownership over that process is incredibly important that, you know, that you cannot possibly do that. So it's not, we're not kind of trying to say shaming parents who don't talk about flu.\
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[00:36:49] Mandy Gosling: No. Because because I think it's an impossible task. You know, parents adults, you know, they're they're trying to survive too Mandy it's an impossible task. I think if we just are really open that there will be a long term aspect to it. And it and it doesn't have to be it can be I mean I I my way of thinking is that there will be certain like time points and there'll be certain things that happen, you know, we know things like leaving home. I mean, we know that attachment is ruptured when a parent dies. So anything that comes in that has that. So I mean like like I always say, there was no way I was coming out of what happened to me without an anxious attachment. I was never going to be anything other than an anxious attachment. I mean, I slept in my father's bed for 2 years after my mother died. My anxiety must have been through the roof. I mean, I didn't know that. Everybody thought it was odd but that was the only way I felt I could survive as to actually sleep next to the person that was my remaining parent.\
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[00:37:59] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Make sure they're still alive.\
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[00:38:00] Mandy Gosling: Make sure they're still alive because God forbid what was going to happen to me if he wasn't alive. I mean, he was not he was not really a great remaining parent, if I'm Monika, but he was a man of his time. But that's what I needed to do and that's really unconscious. But then, you know, when he left at 18, when I was 18, I was gonna I whatever was gonna I was never coming out without that. And I was never gonna be able to have good functioning relationships because of that.\
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[00:38:38] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes.\
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[00:38:39] Mandy Gosling: Until I had done the work I needed to do psychologically, that helped me become more conscious about the things I was feeling when I was in relationships. So it's not that there's no hope, there's lots of hope.\
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[00:38:56] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Mhmm.\
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[00:38:56] Mandy Gosling: But we have to understand what that event how that has shaped the child which then shapes the adult. Yeah. And every bodies will be different.\
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[00:39:09] Dr Monika Wieliczko: I mean, absolutely. And that in some ways I can I can relate to some of these things myself, thinking about, you know, different stages of my life where, well, my father didn't die, but my parents separated when I was very little? So that was my first experience of losing a parent or figure, in a kind of quite a, you know, obviously not conscious way because I don't remember him leaving, as such, but it was the the absence of the father figure that was obviously there. And I remember when my when my husband died, you know, initially, my initial reaction was that, you know, it was complete denial and kind of inability to form lasting relationships. It was actually the the kind of this rebellious almost kind of, response that I don't need anyone.\
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[00:40:02] Dr Monika Wieliczko: I don't care about anyone. So I think that that often comes up in as adults, but it could be similar for for children. And and it wasn't until my attachment kind of system got activated when I allowed myself to invest again, that they started suddenly to feel more worried about losing the person that I was actually attaching to myself to surprise, surprise. Mandy, and, you know, or separation became much harder. And I realized it wasn't just about my husband dying, but it was also my father who left early. So, you know, all those kind of losses that happen throughout the life, not necessarily just death, they all kind of contributed. But as you're saying, you know, these things, when they're happening in the moment, it's very hard to catch them to know, oh, that's why I feel so weird, you know, when he leaves\
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[00:40:55] Mandy Gosling: or That's really unconscious. I mean, I it's I mean, when I run my workshops, I I kinda say, you know, it's like the body snatchers come in and, like, take you over in a completely unconscious way. It's like, who am I? And, you know, you're not aware but, you know, as soon as you become aware then you have half a chance of being able to function with it. And it's all it's not it's not that it disappears, it's just over time it starts to sort of dissipate a little bit more Mandy then you are able to step into that and go, oh, oh, no. It's fine. You know, like, there's a just a little glimmer Mandy. And then sometimes some of the things just do disappear. Yeah.\
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[00:41:36] Dr Monika Wieliczko: So there's always that propensity, isn't there? Oh, there might always be that kind of tenders tendency. But as you go go into it and work through it, it's definitely doesn't have the same hold over you.\
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[00:41:48] Mandy Gosling: Doesn't like that.\
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[00:41:49] Dr Monika Wieliczko: That's definitely I feel feel that the same the same way. But there might be other times when it becomes more difficult.\
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[00:41:56] Mandy Gosling: I also want to mention about what grieving children look like and, you know, obviously mine was in 1973 Mandy I think people didn't think back then that children even had emotions. I'm not I'm not sure what they were thinking. But anyway, and I and I recall a statement that was sad which kind of leads me to sort of understand my work, today where, you know, the adults around me said I wasn't I wasn't bothered that my mum had died because I wasn't crying. And I think, yeah, that was a that was a big statement but the adults then were not informed and they were looking at it from an adult perspective, not from a child perspective. And I think children can mask their feelings incredibly well and they have, you know, an automatic function to just push it to the side and not to have to deal with it because it's too unbearable to deal. And that's why, you know, my thoughts are always that there is more grief work to do when you're an adult because a child can't really tolerate that. They will they will be, you know, I mean I've I've seen many situations where, you know, children find out their parents have died Mandy then, well, it's like, well, I'm just gonna go and have a biscuit or they will just completely switch into something normal or go and watch cartoons. And that's how children manage. But that doesn't mean to say that that grief has gone. It's just dormant. Or\
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[00:43:33] Dr Monika Wieliczko: that they don't have feelings. Yeah.\
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[00:43:35] Mandy Gosling: It's just that the grief has to be dormant. They can't cope with it. They don't have, you know, a thinking capacity that is robust enough to be able to deal with it. And so I think, you know, for parents to understand that children's grief does look different but also that, you know, it might be when they're 25, 30 that more emotions will arise Mandy that that might be 20 years or 25 years or, you know, 30 years. I mean sometimes I see people 50 years after their parent died and that for the first time they are grieving that loss. And and I think it's really important to understand that there's no time frame on it. And I mean I didn't do my grief work until I was about 50 myself. I did what I call strengthening myself first and then I did my grief work. And for 2 years when I did my my first research is when I did it. And yeah, it was really deep and painful and I felt like an orphan Mandy all sorts of painful stuff emerged.\
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[00:44:50] Mandy Gosling: And it was the best thing I'd done because I it it no longer had that unconscious hold on me, you know, so I was able to. And I Mandy I think as a society in in in in general we don't want to talk about loss or we don't want to talk about someone that's died. And that's another thing I would also it's really it's one thing that I I regret with my own children but I didn't have the capacity to do it with them. But that that reinforcement of memory of the person that's died. Because when you're older, you want to have memories to hold onto. It's the one thing that comes up time and time again with older people. I can't remember. And of course, as children, we need our memories reinforced. So to be able to talk about the person that's no longer here is so valuable for children, but it will be so valuable as adults bereaved as children.\
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[00:45:53] Dr Monika Wieliczko: So you're talking about reconstructing or constructing in that way some kind of image of the parent?\
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[00:46:00] Mandy Gosling: The only reinforcement of the person that has died is to be able to keep talking about who they were because that's also part of their identity. Absolutely.\
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[00:46:11] Dr Monika Wieliczko: And I think what you're also saying is that that that work happens as they grow and develop, at different stages. So it's almost like incorporating a conscious, I think a lot of the role of the remaining parent Mandy the family and school and, you know, the wider systems Mandy is is around kind of helping that child to hold that parent in mind as a, you know, as a living kind of figure rather than something that hasn't grown Mandy, you know, and that is really quite a powerful way of putting it that, you know, because often children are not, they don't really have anything kind of substantial to hold on to, so there's just a gap, you know, in the same way as I think of my father, like I don't really have much, to hold on to and, you know, you also have the role of the family and friends and those kind of significant figures in your life who might be able to construct some kind of, I suppose a prototype or some kind of internal image of that kind of protective whether it as a father, it was the protective kind of image of of a a Monika father who will step in and and help out and make you feel safe or or whether it was a mother or something nurturing, like you were talking about your grandmother, for example, or other figure in your life who, like it could be teachers or, you know, babysitters or someone who kind of can provide those functions for the child. And then unless that happens, I think you kind of, you go into this adult life with that kind of missing puzzle, with that missing kind of part of you that hasn't grown, hasn't developed, and as you were talking about this kind of strengthening part of the work, I think a lot of that is around, you know, forming this internally, almost like, you know, repairing something or kind of creating something that will form that function. And for me also it as, you know, many years of therapy where I have been able to trust someone, to, to see that they're consistent, that they're not gonna leave, that that that there's enough trust that can be rebuilt to allow you to function in a particular way. So it is a lot about kind of almost regressing into this, the stages in life and working through that, which as you're saying, you know, it takes a long time Mandy, you know, we all have those missing bits. Mhmm.\
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[00:48:43] Mandy Gosling: Yeah. We have the missing bits, but but we also want actual memories. You know, who was who was this person? You know, what were they like? You know, and not just the Mhmm. Oh, they were just so amazing. We want to know them as a complex character. I mean, I did a I did a project where I wrote about my mother and it was published in an anthology. And there were only 2 people left that were alive and I had to go and kind of interrogate them of who was my mother, what was she like, warts and all, so that I could feel connected with her, you know, as a as a person, not just as my dead mother but as my living mother. And for the time that she was here, who was she? And it's often a big yearning for adults bereaved as children. You know, one of the things they say as, 'I have no memory.' No. Because the trauma as often wiped out the memory. And so, you know, for the family around them is to not think that they're upsetting the child by talking about, you know, the parent that's died, but to actually keep that memory alive and keep going. And my mother was never talked about from the time she died. And I never talked about her to my children Mandy that's the one regret. And if I work with anybody with children, I encourage them to talk to their children so that they are in the family system. They are part of the family. That they they influence, you know, and I, you know, there's certain things I see, you know, from my grandmother to my mother, to me, to my daughter, to my granddaughter. And I can see it now Mandy I talk about certain things Mandy, you know it's to bring them into regard and awareness and love. You know that they they have an influence on our lives. So I wanted to know who was this woman that was my mother that I can't remember? In a very real context, what kind of things did she do? Was she did she do some, you know, really, you know, kind of things that you wouldn't necessarily know? But yes, she did Mandy I love that. I love that she was real and alive and she was here. It's not just about the internalised Mandy of course that's really important, the internalised aspect, because that's what we do need as, you know, an ABC.\
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[00:51:25] Dr Monika Wieliczko: That's how you Mandy to take it in. Absolutely. There's no image.\
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[00:51:29] Mandy Gosling: But I would like to know, you know, lots of things Mandy, you know, and I found out as much as I could and I filled in the rest through various ways of working. And it was the first time I'd really felt close and loved by her. But that took a long time. But if you can do it earlier on, is to talk about them, you know? Yeah. What they were, what they were, what, you know, what humor did they have, you know, what were their quirks? You know, all these things that make a person a person.\
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[00:52:02] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Mhmm. Mandy something you can relate to and something you can relate to yourself because I'm sure there were times when you thought, oh, you've had something in common Dr like what connects you with your mother? Or what were the kind of the the things you were really proud of when you think of her? Or what can you what's validating you knew, what you got from her? I mean that's also part of grieving process, not just, you know, Gosling up process, but also grieving process. What do you wanna keep of your mother? What you can kind of take in, you know, it's so beautiful because it's that the part of the loving elements of grief that we often don't talk about. We just think, oh, you just have to, I don't know, work through those painful feelings. But the thing is that at the end of those painful feelings, there are loving feelings and appreciation Mandy Yeah. And, you\
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[00:52:49] Mandy Gosling: know And every time you have the loving feeling, it will go to the painful feeling. Yeah. And when you have the painful feeling, it has it can go to the loving Gosling. And so you get in this cycle that that's why you can never just Pick 1. Be done with grief. Yeah. Because because it leads to loving feelings, which lead to grief Gosling. And so it continues.\
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[00:53:12] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. Yeah. And I and I suppose that kind of makes me think a little bit more practically about where do those people go or where where's the support available? I know you've got your website where there there are resources, so maybe you could tell us a little bit more about where to start this lengthy but so rich and valuable process for young people or their families thinking about what needs to happen or where to begin thinking about?\
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[00:53:42] Mandy Gosling: I mean, I would always recommend the 3 main children's charities, which is Winston's Wish, Child Bereaved UK, and Grief Encounter for the for the child piece, and they have loads of resources.\
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[00:53:53] Dr Monika Wieliczko: And we put links to the shout notes for that.\
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[00:53:56] Mandy Gosling: I mean, they they have all those main three charities have, you know, great links for the for the child element. And then in terms of charitable, there's It's Time who I do work with, which is young adults. So they go up to age 30. And then it's more sparse because it then, you know, starts getting into the more adult space. And it's more complex then because, I mean, there's many great therapists, don't get me wrong, but it's finding a therapist that understands early life loss in the context of being a adult bereaved as a children some do for sure Mandy some don't for sure. And it's up for people to find, you know, much later. But I I I have a lovely fantasy that if we can do it step by step, then there will be less people that need it further down the road. If we can do it at those pinnacle lifetime events, you know, like the charity with its time. You know, doing young adults is absolutely invaluable. I mean, when I think about my own journey, if that had been available, it would have probably changed the course of my direction significantly. And it's not it's just so that there's an understanding and they have meet and grief groups. They work they they only really work with young people. And that's pivotal when you leave home, university, maybe buying a home, maybe being in relationship, maybe being a parent. That's a big, big part of beyond the children space. And then, you know, that's my hope is that, you know, people will go to these, you know, places Mandy then they'll need less support when they're 50 or 60. Whereas now that doesn't happen.\
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[00:55:58] Dr Monika Wieliczko: That and that that is sadly the reality. Yeah. And that's a big part of your work Mandy your initiative, is to kind of to raise that awareness. And obviously your web site. Can you say a little bit more what people can find there?\
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[00:56:13] Mandy Gosling: Sure. Obviously, you're also\
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[00:56:15] Dr Monika Wieliczko: a practicing therapist Mandy, you know, how people can reach you.\
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[00:56:19] Mandy Gosling: The resources on the website are books. I've done previous podcast interviews which people often find really useful. There are what else is on there? I think that's about it. Books, podcasts. Oh, and I have a newsletter. So I do a monthly newsletter. Mhmm. And that is aimed mostly as, people who are adults bereaved as children. Sometimes professionals adults, you know, want to receive the newsletter. So I will pick a topic Mandy then I will also give background of what I'm doing behind the scenes because I do a lot of stuff behind the scenes. Mandy then I have resources as well on the newsletter. So there's been a few local meet up groups. Sometimes there might be a TED talk that I find really useful. But it's all information pertaining to adults, bereaved as children. It's focused on that level of grief. And it just sort of keeps people in the loop about, you know, what else is happening. I mean, my long my long term plan, which I'm still making inroads in, is with through the PhD I hope to offer recommendations that say more policy level, you know, a level where we can really get understanding in sort of more grief awareness. So, yeah, I'm I I have no idea where that's gonna go right now but, you know, it's all information Mandy I think that's\
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[00:58:01] Dr Monika Wieliczko: That's as first step isn't it? Always is to know.\
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[00:58:06] Mandy Gosling: Is to know Mandy for people to talk about it. I mean I encourage people to talk about it. I mean I run workshops around a couple of workshops a year. Yeah, I mean, I'm doing all as much as I possibly can to Dr awareness about this topic because I think it needs to be understood and recognised and acknowledged. Mandy we have a lot of shame around our grief because I think because we have that narrative of, you know, it's such a long time ago that we have we have symptoms that don't look like grief but are really grief related and we we feel broken often. You know, there's something wrong with me because why why have I got this? I mean, that's a common thread that I see with with people is, you know, why why why am I still feeling this? Because it's not been attended to because it was shut down, because there was never a place to take it, you know, and that's really important to understand.\
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[00:59:03] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. So that's a really wonderful takeaway message, I think, from this conversation, which is about making room for those experiences and and really kind of, acknowledging it, not just on the individual level, but also the family level, the societal level, which is what is going to drive the change in the policy in the way we think about that. You know? And I'm really grateful we've had this conversation, Mandy, because it's just so powerful, and I know we only scratched the surface. And then some sure there's more to come, and, you know, people can follow you, find you on your website Mandy and social media. You know, I'll put all the social media handles in there so so we can stay connected, but, I'm sure we'll get you back because there's so much more to talk about. And I'm really grateful for your time\
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[00:59:57] Mandy Gosling: and your\
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[00:59:58] Dr Monika Wieliczko: genuine warmth and care, about, you know, children, adults groups of children, and just your passion for speaking about this Monika, and it's been real pleasure to\
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[01:00:09] Mandy Gosling: have you on the podcast. Thanks. Thanks, Monica. I'm I'm really pleased for being here today. Thank you.\
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[01:00:14] Dr Monika Wieliczko: If you would like to support the podcast, please leave a review on your preferred platform and share it with people that might need support with their grief. Help them join the grief revolution. Thank you for joining us. I hope you found it useful. Connect with me on Facebook and Instagram under guide to afterlife for more brief tips and resources. Visit guide to afterlife.com to send me your questions and to take part in the Grief M. O. T, your free first aid program for grief. See you next Tuesday for yet another stimulating conversation.\
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Season 2, Ep 3. What Happens to Adults Bereaved as Children? Insights from Mandy Gosling, Psychotherapist.

The Grief MOT

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