Full Transcript
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Welcome to Guide to Afterlife, your go to podcast for young widows. I'm your host, doctor Monica Velichko, a psychologist and your fellow widow. Each episode brings you insights from world renowned grief experts and authors discussing complex grief issues and their personal experiences of loss. My aim is to challenge the way you think, empower you to face your feelings and help you develop resilient ways to grief. Move beyond surviving each day and visit after to take part in the Grief MOT, your first aid program for grief.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: In today's episode, we're talking about navigating dating after loss. So how young widows and widowers can approach the modern dating world and often what gets in the way of us being able to invest in future relationships. So with me today is Nicky Wake, who's a founder of a dating platform for young widows called after two. And I've got her today with me to talk a little bit about, an approaching Valentine's Day and what it brings up in us and how we can start thinking about building life after loss, building relationships after loss. So welcome, Nikki.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: It's lovely to have you here.
Nicky Wake: Yeah. No. Delighted to be here. So thank you for the invitation. I do appreciate it.
Nicky Wake: And looking forward to chatting with you more about this really important subject.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. It is really important. And I feel it brings up such extreme conflicting emotions, dating and grief. I mean, that in itself just is so hard to put together in one sentence. And yet something that is on our minds constantly as we perhaps come out of this kind of more turbulent and, state of grief where people are just struggling to kind of live and and do more than just the basic routines in life. And when you start to kind of think about what your life's gonna look like after loss, when you're ready to maybe begin to think about things are missing in your life, obviously, dating becomes one of those things that we start to think about and often have conflicting feelings about. So that's where I want this conversation to go today. But first of all, I'm really interested in maybe thinking a little bit more about your story. So if you could just introduce yourself and say a little bit about your background and what obviously interested and passionate enough about dating that you created the whole platform for widows to to meet and find the next chapter of their life. So, yes, if Wake could start there.
Nicky Wake: Absolutely. Yeah. Delighted to to share a bit about my personal story. It's it's a story that that obviously affects me massively as I am sadly widowed. So, actually, the whole reason I founded the app was out of personal experience and about struggling myself to date.
Nicky Wake: But let's let's start at the very beginning, with my actual story and how it developed. So I met Andy Wake, the love of my life. He was my soulmate, the yin to my yang, the jaunt to my yoko. He was my world. And I met him, I actually met him online in February '2 in 02/2002. So we were, like, really early pioneers of online dating. This was back in the days where you didn't tell people you met online. It was like, you know, a a a sort of guilty pleasure or a dirty secret. And we lied, and we told everybody we met in a bar. Well, obviously, we did meet in a bar on our first date, but we actually met online for the first time. And this was way before the days of swiping or any of that nonsense. We were we were absolute pioneers on on a site called datingdirect.com, which doesn't even exist to these days. What a shame. Yeah. No. Indeed. That'd probably be a good success story for them, wouldn't I? Yep. So we had a whirlwind romance full of dirty weekends away, you know, crazy adventures, living our very, very best lives. And then, in January, 02/2003, we went Monika holiday. It was our first big posh holiday together, so it was two weeks all inclusive in The Caribbean. I won these kind of sandals type places. And, and we were madly in love. You know? I knew I knew then. In fact, I knew on the very first day I met him that I met the man I was gonna love for the rest of my life.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Mhmm.
Nicky Wake: And I think he must have felt the same, you know, because he actually told me on that first date the songs he wanted played at his funeral. And I I remember thinking, gosh. That's a bit deep. And they were thinking, well, I guess it means that he thinks I'm a bit of a keeper. So I was like, oh, this is this is all good. Anyway, fast forward to January. We were on a beach in Jamaica on the last of our holiday, having had the best day of holiday. And he held my hand, and he looked at me, and he said, would you like to come back here to get married? Obviously, I screamed yes, but it's it wasn't a proposal officially. Like, there was no ring. He's a bloke, so we hadn't actually planned ahead or thought about it. But, you know, he meant it. And sure enough, good to his word, and this is quite spooky because twenty one year years ago today, let literally today while we're doing this recording, got married to Andy. So that's this is my wedding anniversary today. Oh, gosh. I posted on Facebook this morning about it, and, you know, that was the happiest day of my life. And we got married, and then we came home. We bought a house. We started a business together, Don't Panic, which is an events agency. We deliver big award shows all around the world. That's now twenty years old. And then we started trying for a baby. We tried long and hard and had a lot of fun trying and eventually, with a little medical assistance, the beautiful baby boy, Finn, who you can see on the picture behind me. He's not so crazy anymore. In fact, he's 17. Dating quite an old photograph. He's 17 now. And our lives were pretty complete, and we were very, very happy. And we had the perfect little idyllic nuclear family. Everything was wonderful. I was the leading force behind the events company. Andy became the world's best at home dad, so he did every school walk. He, you know, indulged Finn hugely, and they spent all their lives together. It was very special, and I'm very glad looking back that that they had that time. Mhmm.
Nicky Wake: Meanwhile, I was flying around the world delivering big fancy award shows and having a fabulous time. I think I got the better end of that particular bargain, but I came back from a business trip in 02/2017, and Andy was very quiet and very subdued. And I I sort of said, what's wrong? And he said, well, I'm sure it's nothing, but I've had these chest pains, and my blood ran cold. And I frog marched him to the doctors, and three more visits to the doctors, I eventually insisted they did an ECG, and it transpires he was having a heart attack there and then in the surgery. He was rushed to hospital. They put four stents in, and a few hours later, he sat up in bed laughing and demanding a McDonald's of all things. I bring him home a few days later. He spends the night at home. He's again really quite quiet, and, he went to bed early because he was tired. And I followed him up later in the evening, and he was snoring like a trooper and that's probably the one thing I don't miss. And I went and slept in the Sarah room, and then at 06 And he was having another heart attack, so the stents had failed. So I did CPR for forty long minutes until the ambulance arrived, And I saved his life, but, unfortunately, he suffered a catastrophic brain injury from the lack of oxygen to his brain. So he did survive, but he he was severely disabled and brain damaged. And he had no no understanding of where he was, of how he was, of who he was, of who I was. He could hardly hardly speak. He made no sense. He couldn't walk. He was completely incontinent. It was it was absolutely devastating. And his consultant came to me in the early days when he was in ICU and said to me, missus Wake, I'm really sorry, but your story doesn't have a happy ending. And, and he he required twenty four seven round the clock care. He was angry. He was violent. He was confused. It was utterly heartbreaking. And so I entered this stage of anticipatory grief. So I knew he was gonna die, but I didn't know when he was gonna die or how long I had with him. And this living nightmare, though, that myself and my son was in, because I had to go home to Finn and tell him that he would never see his daddy get better. And I made the heartbreaking decision not to let Finn see Andy because it was just utterly devastating to to visit. And, we were in this dreadful limbo phase for three years. And then after three years, COVID hit the headlines, and I just knew instinctively that was the beginning of our end. I knew he wouldn't survive because he was ill with infections, and I knew that that wasn't gonna be something that they Mhmm. Thought he would survive. And so in 04/17/2020, we lost him to COVID, and my world fell apart. I thought that anticipatory grief would give me, you know, almost like a guest loss to to grief. Like, I've done some pre grieving, but pre grieving doesn't count. You know, it hit me like a bomb. Mhmm.
Nicky Wake: And I was utterly devastated, and it was locked down, and me and Finn just clung to each other and sobbed. And and I entered real grief. And then, with the help of some amazing counselling from Cruise in The UK and and a fantastic charity called Widowed and Young who give peer peer support. With with that, I built a kind of network of widow warriors around the world who knew me and who were there at two in the morning when I couldn't, you know, think or Mhmm. And they were a literal lifeline. And then, eventually, you know, six to eight months on, because I'd had that pre grief, my mind did start to dating again. And I think dating gives you hope. Dating after loss can give you hope that your story isn't over. There is another chapter quite literally and figuratively, your second chapter. As we all know, chapter two is a phrase very often used in widow circle to describe their next significant relationship. And so I started, online dating again. And I thought, it's easy, this online dating. Right? Because I did it in my, twenties and thirties, and I know exactly what I'm doing. And I was dating as a 50 you know, 49 year old woman or whatever I was at the time, I'm 53 now, was, was a very different experience, a very different animal. And I found it awful, but but crucially, the bit that I found awful so things like I tried Tinder. I did Bumble. I did Hinge. You know, I did my research for this. And, it's like the wild west out there. You know, it is full of, dare I say the word Nicky pics, and ghosting, and married men, and I had some really truly awful experiences. And when you're widowed, you're very raw, very vulnerable. And to throw your it's like throwing yourself into a lion's den, putting yourself on a mainstream dating site. And I kind of after a couple of horrendous dating, and I'd started a short term relationship with Guy, and and I said something about grief. And he said to me, are you still grieving? I was like, I will always grieve. And he didn't understand that. Mhmm. You know, we call nonwidows muggles, you know, because in a Harry Potter reference, because as widows, we have magical powers. We understand that life can and does change in a heartbeat. So I thought, well, there must be a a dating app for widows and widowers. I mean, there's a dating app for everything these days, isn't there? And I went online. I went on the Google Play Store, and I went on, the App Store, and there wasn't. And I'm a natural entrepreneur. I started the events companies, and and a lot of my events celebrate excellence in digital tech and apps and all that kind of dating, so I know a bit about the world. And I kind of thought, oh, there's an opportunity. So I went and raised investment, to create chapter two because I think if you're gonna do something, you do it properly. And I knew that this was a much needed and wanted resource from all the widows that I'd spoken to. So in November 2022, we launched, chapter two. Wake put the payroll up in January 23, so we're two years old with paying members. We now have 15,000 members. We are live in The UK, The USA, Canada, and Australia, which is very dating. And we've had numerous engagements and a couple of weddings. So, you know, I feel like I'm using, a devastating experience and my grief to create something positive and to change lives. I mean, ironically, I built the apps to change my life, but once I filled them, I didn't feel I didn't feel like I could use it because it feels a bit like a conflict of interest to be, creaming the nice men off myself. So, so so rest assured, ladies, you're safe. Yeah. I I don't my love life remains a complete and utter disaster, but I take great solace and hope in the fact that I'm helping other people to find love. In the meantime, I'm still on Bumble if anyone's looking.
Nicky Wake: So, so, yeah, I do I do I do what I can. But we then also we also started, I recognized within the first six months of chapter two that some of our widows and widowers weren't ready for a committed relationship, but they wanted to, you know, scratch an itch, so to speak. And so there's this phenomenon called widow's fire, which describes the uncontrollable urge when you're grieving to find comfort and solace in sex and affection. And so we started widowsfire.dating. So chapter two at dating.app is where you go if you're looking for a significant relationship, if you're looking for your second chapter. And then widowsfire.dating is for people who are looking for some fun, flirty, no strings attached, no judgment encounters. So there is quite literally something for everybody who is widow or widower within our circles. So, yeah, that's kind of a snapshot of Yeah. What we've done and how we've created. So, hopefully, that gives you an insight.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. A lot of insight and a lot of angles that we could look at this whole, dating world and especially within the context of Valentine's Day, what that brings up in us when we think about who we're spending that Valentine's Day with, but also all the memories. And I think what you've just been describing is this dilemma between the past and what the grief and the loss of a life partner creates in us. And I think that's also more likely to be a problem for women culturally. I think there's something about this stereotype of a widow as someone who, yes, is hollow, is empty, and kind of have to almost remain in this kind of state of grief for the rest of their lives.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: I think there's there's often the unconscious narrative that is being kind of replayed in our minds. And whenever there's an an opportunity to think about living life or engaging in love again, loving again, or Wake you said, engaging in sexual activity, but not necessarily with the plan to have a relationship is something that is so saturated with guilt, with certain expectations, shame, and a sense of isolation that you really don't know which way to go because I think a lot of widows will say that other people would comment on that. They'll say, oh, are you sure you if you're doing it too early? I mean, obviously, how often people think of it as too early, meaning something that other people would consider too early. They often feel judged. But then there's also the the experience of waiting and waiting and waiting years and years and years and and not engaging in any any other relationship, which then society experiences. Oh, why aren't you dating again? Why aren't you kind of thinking of creating a relationship again? So I think that that dilemma is replaced in so many different areas, so many different aspects of our lives. And as someone like myself who Wake actually started dating fairly early on after my husband died. And similarly to you, after a prolonged illness, it was actually after, but that kind of I think that really changes the not necessarily may as you say, it makes the the actual death easier, but I think it because it's been such a prolonged period of time, I mean, what you were describing yourself about, you know, three years of being in this limbo state where you're not really in a relationship with a person in the same way because of the illness, but at the same time, you're not able to move on. Move on dating move forward with with your life, move forward with forming new relationship. And I think that creates a specific environment in which it's much I think in in some ways, it's much harder to know what to do because it's the these thoughts, you know, often come up before the person dies. You know? How do you live your life? You know? You want to live your life on the one hand. On the other, you feel terribly conflicted with the unresolved relationship. You know, are you with this person or you're not? So so what I'm trying to say is that it's such a complex picture that we need to be looking at when we think about someone who's coming into the world of dating, even considering dating.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: And we know that a lot of people will be struggling with making that decision, and they will have all sorts of thoughts and beliefs about what it means to start thinking about someone else. And how do you find room for both grief and life after loss and and thinking about starting to to do that? And I think one of the I suppose one of the first questions would be around, you know, if we could think a bit more about that, you know, when is the right time to start about dating? Because I think that's one of the questions that I often see on social groups for widows. You know, is it too early to start? Is it, you know, should I be thinking about it? But why can't I start dating or what's getting in the way? But I think this idea about readiness is an interesting one, isn't it? Because who are we to decide, you know, when is a good time to decide about these things? Because often when people ask these questions, I wonder what happens in your mind when you hear that. But for for me, definitely, there's a question of, are they asking for some kind of permission? Yeah. You know, is are people asking, you know, is are people gonna be judging me if I start dating now?
Nicky Wake: Yeah. Absolutely.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Or am I ready?
Nicky Wake: It's definitely one of the most asked questions on our forum. So we have a forum that anyone can go on to. You don't have to be a member to to use the forum. It's free to join anyway as a member, but it's one of the most hotly asked questions, and it features all the time as a constant thread for discussion point. And the simple answer is there isn't a right or a wrong time, and nobody has the right to judge.
Nicky Wake: You will know yourself fundamentally when it feels right for you. And, obviously, you may want to keep the fact that you're actually online seeking a relationship or thinking about dating again quite private initially, and we would recommend that you do that because until you start to make tentative steps into exploring a way forward, you won't know how you feel. And, you know, I certainly thought I was ready, and I was you know, after I'd lost Andy sort of six months on, that I was ready and, you know, in the right frame of mind for committed relationship. Well, I think my rather disastrous love life proves that wasn't quite the case because I failed to make meaningful connections and failed to open my heart and mind to a more serious loss term relationship. And, actually, I would have been better solving some of that through, you know, an alternative means Wake widow's fire or or whatever. And it does take time, and almost it takes practice to kinda get yourself dating ready again. You know, a lot of us haven't dated for twenty to thirty years. Things have moved on. Things have changed. And I'd hope that chapter two creates a platform that's a safe space. You're dealing with other people who understand, who've been through what you've been through, and have are feeling as raw, as vulnerable. And you don't have to ask that awkward question. I think one of the hardest things as a widow when you're dating when you're thinking about dating or using dating sites is that, when do I tell them? Because if you put on your profile on a mainstream site, you will attract scammers and people who want to take advantage of your vulnerability. If you wait and you talk to them on the first date, well, that's a bit of a passion killer, isn't it? You know, they're not about to go in for a kiss the minute you tell them that your heart is broken, you know, quite rightly and understandably. It takes a really big person, man or woman, to deal with that vulnerability and to respect it and to know that it will be challenging for you, and you will suffer bouts Yeah. Confusion or guilt or and that that is perfectly normal and to be expected, really. I think we need to break the taboo of dating again. I mean, if you look at the stuff that goes on in the media, I don't know if you've seen, but, Kelsey Parker, who is the widow of a guy from a boy band, Wanted, I think they're called. And the backlash she has received as a result of dating again, and God forbid, she's now pregnant, and I'm thrilled for her that she has found a chapter two, and she has found joy, and she has found happiness. And yet she's been regaled in the media on Facebook, etcetera for for having the audacity to, in their mind, move on. But as widows, we don't move on. We move forward. Mhmm. We have every right Yeah. To be happy again. And Yeah. Our partners would want us to. I'm lucky.
Nicky Wake: Me and Andy had a conversation, before he fell ill the first time because a friend of ours, her partner, who was Andy's best friend, died very tragically of a brain hemorrhage. And we went out to see her in Australia, and she had moved forward and started a relationship with Adam's best friend in Australia. And they are blissfully happy together in their new union, and we were thrilled for them and very supportive. But she I I could tell she was nervous about telling us. And that's that's, you know, that's heartbreaking that, you know, we just wanted to see her happy again, and we are % approved of this new union. How the tribe became joy. And together, they they they remember and respect what's gone before, but they're embracing a a fabulous new future together, and that is beautiful. I think as society, we do well to remember that there in the grace of God go I, that loss can happen to any one of us. We didn't choose this situation. If Andy was still alive, I would not be dating again with somebody else, you know, But I can't bring him back and nothing will bring him back. All I can do is love and honor his memory and try and be the best person I can and be the best mother I can for his son and remember him daily. Not a day goes by where I don't think about him. But I genuinely believe that I do deserve to find out again.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. And there's something there really important for our listeners to get hold of, which you said. So I wanna circle back again to this whole idea of what it means to be ready. And I think the problem with the word ready, which, there's no such a thing as being ready as such because as you're saying, there's a process of practicing, of finding out what it feels like to go on a date with someone. And and and as you're saying, expecting that these things will be complicated.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Whenever grief is involved, obviously, relationships will be affected one way or the other. But I think what you're saying that is really important is that transparency with ourselves, what to expect, what we could expect from dating again, but also preparing the other person at the right time. So maybe not saying you on the first date or the first message you exchange, you introduce yourself as a widow, which could be, as you're saying, putting you potentially in a vulnerable position as someone who could be taken advantage of. But also being very clear with yourself what it is that you're looking for. Because as he's saying, I think a lot of widows will try to maybe fill in the gap with the new relationship. And I think when we're really craving closeness of our late partner and that's not possible, we somehow, I think, sometimes try to replace that gap with with another relationship. And I think that's when it becomes problematic with dating is when we cannot separate out our needs and our fantasies about what that new person is going to bring. Do we have room for another relationship, or are we just dating because we want closeness? We we want to satisfy whether that's intimacy, sexual needs, or just company with another person, which isn't bad in in in many ways. I think it's a very normative experience because, actually, what we know from research is that sex helps an intimacy touch, helps with production of oxytocin, reducing stress hormones, regulating our bodies, regulating our stress response. So a lot of those experiences are actually beneficial. And I think instinctively, which is why I think this whole widow fire comes up, is a protective mechanism. It's a bit like if you've been confronted with death for too long, the other side of your brain starts to kick in, which is a protective mechanism, which is often what happens after war where I mean, I know this from I'm originally from Poland, so after the second World Wake, or even after the communism ended, there was there was a massive spike in number of children that were born because people were obviously having more sex. Why they were having more sex? Because there was so much death. And it's a compensatory strategy to help people recover from a tremendous loss. It preserved the genes, preserved their lives. But there's culturally so much judgment around it. It's not to say that you should go and get pregnant the first time. Yeah.
Nicky Wake: I think I should say all this, but yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. Let's make it clear that that's not what we're recommending. But but I think it's really important that we understand where that Dr comes from. And it's a natural mechanism, but it doesn't mean that you have to start, you know, dating whoever comes through the door, that you have to be thinking about these things, which is why I think having those conversations is so important. Because I can imagine that if you're so ashamed of it and you don't talk about these things, you're more likely to put yourself at risk and date someone who's inappropriate or maybe can take advantage of you. But you also don't know if you can talk to anyone about it. I mean, thinking of myself as well, you know, I I had quite a lot of friends I could talk to about these things. But I also thought there were many people I couldn't approach this subject with because of those expectations. Like, I remember one of my friends said, are you sure you're starting dating? Maybe it hasn't been that long. And that immediately Yeah. Yeah. That's Immediately Wake me feel really angry. Like, well, first of all
Nicky Wake: Guilty. You know, Guilty. Yeah. Yeah. You're already guilt is a really complex emotion, and you're already wrestling with all that. And and what you need is validation and encouragement from friends and support. And, unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily come naturally to some people, and other people have views. I guess the piece of advice I give is is to not take it to heart if you can and understand that you almost have to be selfish in the idea of of dating again. It's very easy for someone else who's happily married with a husband who's alive and kicking to to say you shouldn't.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: They didn't
Nicky Wake: understand the loss and despair and the loneliness and the not having somebody to share your life with anymore. And that that is that was not a decision you took out of any choice of your own. That was ripped from you.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: But, yeah, those bonds that still keeps you attached during grief with the person who died are obviously going to interfere with any relationship you're going to have at any point in your life. So I think this whole idea of readiness is a bit like, okay, I'm gonna wait until I feel completely ready, which is I think often the fantasy that a lot of people who are maybe putting dating on hold is functioning in their minds is is that, okay, when the time's right, when I feel when I don't feel bad or I don't feel guilty or I don't feel like I'm betraying my late husband, that that's when I'm gonna start dating. And and and these goals are obviously not possible to achieve because whenever something like this comes up in our lives, like a new relationship or even, like, desire to be with someone else or wanting to have sex with someone else, You know, all these situations will evoke very strong, very powerful, conflicting feelings, wanting on the one hand to be loved and cared for, but on the other feeling bad, like we're betraying another part of our lives. So so the so I think that we have to, I think, make it very clear that I don't think that, you know, some people might find it easier than others. But inevitably, these conflicting areas are likely to come up, and that shouldn't be necessarily stopping you from thinking about dating. But you also need to be honest with yourself about what is it that you Wake. Because I think a lot of heartbreaks during that kind of grieving period where we're so vulnerable comes up from, I think, not understanding what is it that we want or what is the actual intention behind seeing someone else. And and I think that is that is the issue. I think that often I often see people talking about, I've been dating this guy.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: We've been together for for this this amount of time. And then he said he couldn't cope with my grief or something like that. But there's obviously more to the story that we don't hear. Can we make room for another relationship? Can we really think of that person as as someone we want to have a different relationship with that won't be replacing the one we've had? And can that person be supportive enough of our grief? Because that's another area I think that often comes up, isn't it? That how do you find someone who's mature enough and capable enough to make that room in their lives, knowing that part of your life, part of your heart is still committed to that other relationship that ended, as you said, Nicky, not because we wanted it to end. It just happened to us. So it's a very different experience to getting a divorce when, you know, you're choosing maybe not not necessarily choosing, but eventually there's an ending to relationship in many forms. So there's so much there. Mhmm. But what I wanted to ask you specifically a bit more is I know that you did, a huge survey on all the people who've been using the platform that were participating in kind of chapter I don't know if it's just chapter two, if there was the widow's fire as well involved in this.
Nicky Wake: Loss was chapter two. So this was a
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Chapter two. Yeah.
Nicky Wake: Thousand members of chapter Yeah. Burbaid. And we had a really, really good response. I don't think there were any surprises in the report, but it's certainly validation of some of the points we've discussed, how people felt. We kinda did this based on the fact that there's a release of Bridget Jones's latest instalment, Mad About the Boy, which is film franchise I loved, always. And then her life mirrors art now in the sense that, you know, he's a widow. Unfortunately, I don't get to kiss Colin Firth or Hugh Grant, but my knickers are as big as Bridget's. So, that's where the similarities end, sadly. But she is a widow, and so so the topic of dating after loss, has been thankfully brought to the forefront in the media. So we've had lots of media inquiries, which is fabulous, and very, very good for chapter two and for spreading the word because there, you know, there are lots of widows in The UK. There are just The UK alone is three point twelve million widows. And, you know, we've got 15,000 of those on the platform, but we we'd like to spread the word and help as many widows and widowers as possible. And so the media interest in Bridget, is great for us. And, you know, it did give us the answer to some of those questions of when people start to date again and what the time scales around that was and how they felt about it. And, you know, there's some really interesting stats in there, I think.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. Could you share some of that with us now?
Nicky Wake: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So 63 of which is quite high of widows and widowers that we surveyed experienced their loss within the past one to five years. So so quite a lot of more than half of them are pretty newly widowed, I would suggest. Particularly bearing in mind that people tend to leave, you know, at least six months and longer, before starting dating, but not always the case. You know, we have found that, typically, male widowers move forward quicker than female widows, which I think probably isn't that surprising, if you understand, you know, my male psyche. So, eleven percent of our membership who are actively considering dating because they're on the platform had lost their partner less than a year ago is eleven percent. So so, you know, that's a tenth of of the audience in effect. Nearly half of the people who responded are ready in their minds, but they they do. So ninety percent of those, which is a big number, admitted that the memory of their late partners influences their expectations in a new relationship. And I think, you know, that's understandable, Particularly as you move later in life, you have lots of preconceived ideas of what you want and what what you're expecting from a relationship going forward. I think when you're dating as a 20 year old, you're still trying to find out who you are. But I think as a 40 or 50 year old, you certainly have an idea of the kind of person you are and the kind of person that you would like. Mhmm. We surveyed people to say, you know, do you think you waited the right amount of time? And 63% felt that they had. So it worked for them, and I think that's the important thing. 22% felt they waited too long, and 15% felt they didn't wait enough. So I suppose that's quite reassuring that the majority are getting it right for them, and there is no right or or wrong, kinda concern. So, yeah, I mean, if people want to have a look at the the report, they can go to chapter2dating.app. And then if you click on the blog section, and it's all completely free to download and look at these stats.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. We could also put it in the show notes so it's easily accessible. I had a look as well, and and I think some of the stats that you've been describing are really quite, interesting, you know, and specifically the gender differences, how quickly we we move move on, move on, move forward, you know, with life. And I think that, you know, on the one hand, it's not a surprise, but I think I wonder how much of that is also the social perception and certain, you know, obviously, the rules of the society. When you think even about where the word widow comes from, and it actually originates from a different meaning than a widower because a widow means an empty vessel, if we kind of translate it and kind of look at the roots of the word.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: And and that there's the the kind of the expectation that you're so empty that you've got nothing else to give and you've got nothing left in you and the real sense of, you know, who am I then without without my husband, which I think in some ways could be really problematic. And in some ways, I think can prolong that state of just, you know, waiting for something for something to happen in your life and not playing more active role in that, or maybe struggling with those feelings of guilt, which could be kind of compensating for some of the other issues that might be in the background that we are not aware of. But men seem to be, as you're saying, moving moving forward, starting dating a bit quicker. And maybe there's also an element of, you know, if you have children, for example. I don't know if there's any research on, you know, family constellations and what what is involved or what might be getting in the picture. But I think even if there isn't, I think it would be really interesting to see some of those after. You know, what's stopping women from dating. You know? Like, for example, if you've got children, small children, you know, it's much harder to go find babysitter and and go on dating, you know.
Nicky Wake: Exactly. We well, we did actually ask a few questions around that, and and ninety percent of people were considering their children and how they would be affected. It is undoubtedly, a figure. And as you say, just down to practicalities, if not emotionally, you know, trying to get a babysitter is is challenging at the best of times. So that is something that we are aware. 60% of our, members said they avoid conversations about dating with their children. So a lot of them are dating without their children's knowledge, and 24% cited their children are their top concern. So, yeah, there's a whole side in the deck about about this. 8% of people are hiding their dating lives. So, yeah, it is undoubtedly, a fact of consideration within this. But, yeah, there's some really interesting dating. And, actually, it it's the kind of report, because it's got lots of nice easy to read infographics in it, that if you have a friend who doesn't understand why you're dating or they then it it can be quite a useful tool to talk through and to to vocalize some of these numbers. And just to know that you're not alone, you have the same concerns and it's completely normal as, you know, thousands of widowers up and down, you know, the country and across the globe. So, yeah, hopefully, there's there's some interesting stats which will resonate with with any of those or Wake do as contemplating this.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. Yes. And I think one of the major issues, I mean, maybe that come up is, obviously, as you mentioned, about the what the modern dating world looks like and what are the main obstacles that people find as they begin to date. And, you know, some of it is obviously about how safe they feel to date, but also how Yeah. Your presence on social media or on dating app can really put you at risk, especially as you said, if you're in your forties or fifties or thirties and you never dated.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: I mean, I was in a relationship with my late husband for over a decade, and dating didn't exist at the time when we met. So for me, when I started dating again, it Wake, yeah, the whole new world of, you know I I remember my friends who were single saying something about dating, and I couldn't quite understand all this swiping, what that was about. So so, you know, I can yeah. And when when you're in your forties or fifties and you have to find an app and create a profile and put yourself out there, I mean, you know, you're obviously thinking, oh, well, people might be able to see me. Who's who's seeing my profile? What kind of pictures can I upload? And, you know, what what is this business about? So I think it's it's a completely different way of meeting people or something, like I said, in some ways unavoidable. Wake, how else are you supposed to meet people these days other than an online dating? I mean, there there's a chance you might meet someone in the park or on the street or but probably very unlikely loss you meet someone at work or if you're still studying or going somewhere where you are exposed to meeting new people. But other than that, especially after COVID when people keep the distance, you know, it's much harder, I think, to create those organic relationships. So I suppose the next thing I wanted to think with you about is is a little bit about what are those obstacles with this new online dating world and with how to make it safe.
Nicky Wake: Yeah. I suppose we issue, safety dating tips on a monthly basis, and we have a whole section on our website about safety dating. So I would say that's a that's a good place, to start. And it, you know, it is a concern, and and we, you know, we take it very seriously, the whole support and advice that we can can give people. So, you know, it's really quite what you would think is obvious stuff, but if you've not dated for a while, wouldn't be. So it's around not sharing anything that you're not comfortable with, keeping all communication on the platform. If you are meeting someone, meet in public, and tell people that you're going. Do not, under any circumstances, give any personal or financial information to anybody. And if anybody asks you for Monika, that is suspect. Please block and report immediately. You know, there are unfortunately, the the dating industry as a whole, certainly not just widow sector, is rife with people who want to take advantage of vulnerable people in all niches and and and walks of life to be very, very aware and self protective of that. But I think over and above the kind of physical safety tips and the financial safety tips, you know, there's an emotional safety thing here, which is about taking it gently, taking it slowly. Do not go rushing into something because you're feeling that void of your partner not being here. So you instantly think that the next person has to be your new husband or wife. That really isn't the case and and not how you would approach a relationship earlier in life. So do take your time. Meet several people. Have conversations. It's perfectly normal to be speaking to two or three people at any one time on an app. You don't have to be immediately exclusive with somebody on an app. And my one piece of advice that, you know, I I had a date last night, actually, and I met him really Nicky. So I try and move it to a coffee very, very quickly to find out if there's some real chemistry in life because you can spend a month chatting to someone thinking that they're someone special. And you meet them and the chemistry just isn't there, and you can't assess without meeting Wake to face.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Absolutely.
Nicky Wake: So I I think that's, you know, just a little piece of advice, and it will also make you assess whether someone is genuine and is a genuine bona fide widow who is at a similar stage of widowedness to you. Because, you know, someone who's been widowed less than a year has a very different experience and view on life to someone who, like me, is five years into loss, but actually eight years into loss if you think about my husband fell ill like yours. So, yeah, making sure that you're you're meeting someone at a similar phase in their journey or someone who has empathy for the phase in your journey you're on. And I think that's quite
Dr Monika Wieliczko: important.
Nicky Wake: And and also give each other space to remember, to honor, to talk about. You know, you don't it's like when you have a second child. I don't know because you've only got one, but people my friends who who have been crazy enough to have more than one tell me that, I don't know how anyone does that, but tell me that you don't stop loving your first one more. You know? You don't stop dating your first one just because you've had another child. And I think dating after loss, that's the overriding theme is that it is possible. But I think the really important thing about Bridget Jones is it's breaking the taboo. You know, it's it's normalizing dating after loss, and that has got to be a wonderful thing for all widows.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: And I think just to add on that because I think it's so crucial that we make this message very clear to our listeners. There's something about when I think about relationships, when I think about my current relationship, for example, and how I navigated those struggles within that relationship because, you know, when we met, we I was definitely still in a place where nothing kind of maybe I didn't think of it necessary when I met him. I didn't think, oh, I'm I'm ready to start forming a relationship, but I wanted to see people. I wanted to talk to people. I wanted to explore possibilities. And I and I definitely didn't want to commit to anything kind of straight Wake, which I think it was a kind of when you think back about it, it made it very transparent to him. And I think the fact that he was able to take it in and in some ways respected that, and it didn't push for anything more. And I think I made it very clear to myself what I was capable of at the time, which I think a lot of people probably struggle with knowing, first of all, but also communicating that loss. That that it takes time to to get to the point where you are able to commit to something. You don't have to know that straightway when that's going to happen, but having that conversation at the beginning, I think, clears things out. Because if someone's not really interested, they at least they know and you kind of you make it very transparent about your needs and your capacity, what you're capable of dating, and what you're not capable of doing. But I think as time goes by, I think you you kind of learn how to make room for this other person and in as if you would do in any other relationship. But you also need to make room for that person who died for that for your for your late partner. But I think what is crucial for me, and I think it often is problematic, I think, in relationships when we start dating, is how much are we able to think of this relationship as something that, you know, ended in the past in the in the form of living relationship and and transformed into a relationship that we have in our mind, meaning that I think something really crucial about widowhood, what what I've learned through my own grief journey, but also listening and seeing how people navigate those struggles in the therapy room, is that, you know, you you have to be able somehow to let go of some bits.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: You know? Because if if that person if I think of my late husband, if and if I put him in the center of my life, well, in that way, there is no room for this other person to come in. And it doesn't mean that he has to be removed from my life, but he has to function in a slightly different form in a slightly different place. And I think it takes a long time for that battle, for that kind of place to be found. But I think a lot of widows, I think, who are starting dating, they are the worry that they have to get rid of that person in order to and push it out and then start thinking about the new relationship and then block out their memories, block out their grief, or they get so overwhelmed with grief that it's very difficult for this new person to exist as a valid, interesting potential partner in the future. And I and I think there's something there about for me, at least, personally, it's been about kind of being able to have someone to talk about these things, to reflect on these things, to know where we where you are in your own grief journey, and what it is that you want because, you know, the these conflicting feelings are going to happen. They are going to take place. It's not like we can just say, okay. I'm gonna put my grief on hold when I go on a dating, and I can stop thinking about that. And then when I come back, and I'm not seeing this new guy, I can I can get back to my grief? But then, obviously, that's that's gonna fall apart sooner or later. And I don't know whether that's been your struggle personally, Nikki, but I think I I I I think it's there's something at the core of the whole issue of dating that we really struggle to make room for both.
Nicky Wake: Yeah. No. Absolutely. It is, It's it's something I think we've all wrestled with in time. So yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. And and I suppose as you were saying about, you know, the safety of just going back to a little bit for for a moment, thinking about the safety of those first dates and, you know, you know, I can imagine that a lot of people will be thinking about Valentine's Day. For some, it will be a very sad, very difficult time when, you know, it's not gonna be about dating them a date, but maybe struggling with guilt and thinking, yeah, on the one hand, I wish that person was still there with me, and the other feeling really lonely and longing for connection and longing for closeness.
Nicky Wake: It's a very difficult day for for widows and widowers regardless of where they are in dating. Again, you know, it it is it's a tricky day, because your heart obviously is thinking and your mind is thinking about the part that you've loss.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Mhmm.
Nicky Wake: But you may also be wrestling that with seeing somebody else on that day. You know? So to have you know, the the brain almost is fighting itself in that sense. Or if you aren't seeing anybody else, then you're sat on the sofa, lonely and tragic, having an M and S meal for two all to yourself. You know, it's it's a tough day for widows and widowers regardless of where they are in their cycle and their personal journey, And we're here to to to help widows any way that that we can through that. Mhmm. Dylan.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: And I think what you were saying is, obviously, what is really important is to have that community of people that you can talk to about your dating struggles or struggles with thinking about dating or even contemplating that and then being able to feel safe to talk about this. Because I often see that in social media and in social groups for widows where people feel really not safe enough to publicly ask questions, and they ask those questions anonymously. Don't know if you noticed that. A lot of time, they come up as anonymous loss, and I think, gosh, there's so much there already when you think about why is this person so afraid to ask the question. But then when you look at the common section, you can see this kind of war evolving, you know, the the group that is
Nicky Wake: Everyone's kind of speaking out of you. So, so yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think there's kind of closed widow groups are are good for that. I mean, we we also host free events for widows and widowers, and very often those conversations happen at those events. And that's that's if you're not sure about dating yet or you're not ready to quite put yourself out there, what I would say is come to one of our free events. They're monthly. They're on our website. Completely free to attend. You don't have to be a member. You just have to be widowed. And they're an opportunity to come together with other widows and to talk and to meet. They're very casual, couple of hours in a bar. You know, there's no speed dating or anything horrendous like that. And that's a great opportunity to take a a tentative step into this scary world that that, you know, you're you're con considering and contemplating. But I think my overriding message would be you should not feel guilty for wanting to navigate a way forward, and you do deserve joy and happiness. And, almost always, your late partner would want that for you. And and it's about finding a safe space, which chapter two is, to explore that with people who understand. Not having to explain to someone being widowed like is a game changer in relationships. You know, it is the silver bullet to to sort this this dilemma for yourself out. If nothing else, you could use chapter two to find other people just to chat to who understand. You know? You may not be absolutely ready for the next relationship of your life, but the worst that could happen is you could meet some nice new friends. Yeah.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Terrible outcome. No. But obviously obviously, there's there's a there's a lot there, and I and I really liked how you were phrasing it about, you know, having a safe place to explore these things and to have a look at these things because I think a lot of these things happen in our minds. And when we start ruminating and worrying and feeling guilty and anxious about even having thought about wanting to date or even considering that maybe in the future, maybe I would I would do that, but but not now. You know, all these kind of obstacles that function in our minds have a protective function, but they also sometimes are very limiting in terms of our capacity to meet other people. And we you don't have to as you're saying, you don't have to meet go to a social event and meet people with the expectation that you're gonna start dating. But it's about meeting new people and being open to all sorts of relationships. So you might not be ready to date, but you might be ready to meet someone and meet new friends. And and that might be enough, and that might be a a step building towards dating at some point. It might not be, but I think it's just a step towards building relationships. And we know that if we're able to make new friendships and and invest in them, then we're more likely to invest in other relationships in the future. So it's it's about kind of creating new dating bonds, which are so in many ways really therapeutic in grief and really necessary in helping us reconnect with the world and rebuild our sense of identity. So so these things are really important. So even to to all the listeners, even if you're not ready to date right now, I think kind of connecting, making links, exploring those options in a safe way, making sure that you're not putting yourself
Nicky Wake: in
Dr Monika Wieliczko: a vulnerable loss, and and speaking to people who understand grief. These are the most important tips and steps that you can take. So thank you so much, Nikki, for today, for spending this time and, you know, talking about, you know, all those sharing your story, most importantly, which is so, you know, heartbreaking, but also really encouraging that you you didn't give up, that you kept on pushing and and still trying to find your chapter two. My own channel.
Nicky Wake: Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. No. Absolutely. And if anybody wants any more information, they can reach out to me. My email address is all over the site. So if you go to chapter2dating.app or widows fire dot dating, then you can find, more information there or just reach out to me personally. I'm always happy to chat to widows and widows.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Well, thank you so much for today.
Nicky Wake: Well, thank you. Thank you for featuring us. I really appreciate it.
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Thank you for joining us. I hope you found it useful. Connect with me on Facebook and Instagram under Guide to Afterlife for more brief tips and resources. Visit GuidetoAfterlife.com to send me your questions and to take part in the Grief MOT, T, your free first aid program for grief. See you next Tuesday for yet another stimulating conversation.
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