Season 2, Episode 7: My Wife Said You May Want to Marry Me: Embracing Life After Loss with Jason Rosenthal

Season #2 March 04, 2025

On 3rd March 2017, a few days before she passed away from ovarian cancer, Amy Krouse Rosenthal wrote a piece titled “You May Want to Marry My Husband” for the New York Times’s Modern Love column. It was Amy's final piece of writing: a love letter in a form of a dating profile — a gift to her husband, Jason Rosenthal, that, at the very end, gave him permission to live life without her. Her letter went viral with over 5 million people reading it.

I met with Jason Rosenthal on 14th February to talk about his grief journey almost exactly 8 years after Amy's death to talk about a memoir which he had written in response to his late wife's letter:

“My Wife Said You May Want to Marry Me”

The memoir gives readers an intimate look into the couple’s marriage and family, her death, and Rosenthal’s life without her.

This is a story about giving permission to live, the ultimate act of love.

In this episode, Jason shares his personal story of losing his wife, and how her viral essay "You May Want to Marry My Husband" changed his life.

Key topics discussed:

Amy's final gift of permission to move forward
The challenges of caring for a terminally ill partner
The importance of community support in grief
Finding resilience and joy after loss
Navigating new relationships while honouring past love

Don't forget to subscribe to A Guide to After Life podcast list to be notified of more conversations about navigating grief.

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- Find out about Grief Group Therapy that I offer

- Unsure whether to see a psychologist, psychotherapist or counsellor or grief coach for grief support? Read this blog post to find out more.

- Join a free Facebook Group

- Find out more about grief support

Guest's Bio:

Jason B. Rosenthal is an author, foundation Board Chair, public speaker and lawyer who retrained to be a social worker and is now working therapeutically with grieving individuals. He is also the subject of an essay written by his wife, Amy Krouse Rosenthal, called You May Want to Marry My Husband that went viral and was read by millions of readers worldwide. His first book, written in collaboration with his daughter Paris called Dear Boy, debuted on the New York Times Bestseller list at #1. His response to Amy’s piece titled, My Wife Said You May Want to Marry Me was published in 2018.

- Listen to Jason's TedTalk

- Jason's sliding scale clinic for bereaved individuals, children and families.

Connect with Dr Monika Wieliczko

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Episode Transcript

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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Welcome to Guide to Afterlife, your go to podcast for young widows. I'm your host, doctor Monica Velichko, a psychologist and your fellow widow. Each episode brings you insights from world renowned grief experts and authors discussing complex grief issues and their personal experiences of loss. My aim is to challenge the way you think, empower you to face your feelings, and help you develop resilient ways to grief. Move beyond surviving each day and visit after to take part in the Grief MOT, your first aid program for grief.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Today's episode is about giving ourselves permission to live and an intimate act of love that is somewhere at the core of the difficulties with living life after loss of a life partner. So anyone listening to this episode struggling with intense feelings of ambivalence and guilt and sorrow after loss should really listen to this. And we're actually recording it on the February 14, which is the Valentine's Jason. And I've got a very special Valentine message to bring back today. I don't know if you remember a viral essay, You May Want to Marry My Husband, which was written by Amy Krauss Rosenthal.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: It was written on the Valentine's Day or released at around that time in 2017 and actually published on the 03/03/2017 and was ten days before Amy died. She wrote in this essay about her love for her husband, and the life they had together, and how she hoped he would live and move forward in the future. And the essay went viral, and now I've got a very distinct memory reading it, and thinking, what an incredibly moving idea, and I think millions of people read it, and the response from that essay was truly overwhelming. Today, I've got a very special guest, the man in question, Jason Russell, who actually have written a book in response to this essay, which I've got with me today, and the title is My Wife Said You Might Want to Marry Me. I would really want you to spend some time now listening to this conversation and thinking with me about this journey that Jason's been on and what we can learn from those two perspectives and how things have changed for him eight years on.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: So I really want to welcome now Jason to the podcast. Hi.\
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Jason Rosenthal: How are you? Thank you so much for having me.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Hello. No. It's so great to have you here. And, you know, I'm so glad that completely by accident, we stumbled upon this day, the February 14. And I remember when we talked about it a few weeks ago, and then after, I thought, oh, gosh. This is this is the best time ever to talk about this on Valentine's Day. So Jason and I, I would really like you to maybe say a few things about yourself and obviously what you've been doing and and a bit of your story to share with our listeners. So if you could start there.\
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Jason Rosenthal: Sure. Well, as you said, you know, Amy, my wife of twenty six years, wrote this incredible, incredible essay that struck a chord with so many people because of how poignant it was, but it was also infused with her typical, incredible sense of humor in the face of such a dark time in her life. And so as that essay was released in the Monika Love column of the New York Times, as you said, ten days before she died of ovarian after, you know, it just it just completely changed my world. Right? I had no idea that, and she didn't really, that this essay would hit home with so many people literally around\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: the world. Yeah.\
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Jason Rosenthal: And so, pretty much immediately I was thrust into this spotlight where, you know, I was let's put it this way. Prior to that, I was just head down, living my life. I was a lawyer in Chicago. And honestly, if you even Googled me, you wouldn't even get my address. I just was just doing my thing, my family and doing all that. And then all of a sudden I'm bombarded with, you know, journalists and film producers and all these people who wanted to talk to me. I wasn't ready, obviously. So after many, many months of intense grieving, I I basically decided that with this platform that I was given, I wanted to do something with it. You know, Amy clearly had somewhat sense that this was Monika happen in a way if it was if it was published and if it was successful. And so the pretty much the first thing I did that was really in the public spotlight was to give a TED talk. And we can talk about that later if you want. Yeah. And it was from that that I had this, you know, moniker of being the grief guy. And so I was asked to do a lot of public speaking all over the world, literally, and eventually was asked to do a response modern love column to Amy's that follow following Father's Day. And so I did that.\
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Jason Rosenthal: And then from, from that piece of writing, it became the book that you told your audience about just a few minutes ago.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah.\
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Jason Rosenthal: And I can go on and out, and my life has changed almost in every single way, but I'm happy to just, you know, kick back, answer some questions, and have a conversation with you.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: No. And I think it's such a needed conversation to be had. And I mentioned to you that I just came back from cinema watching the new Bridget Jones film that kind of in some ways also puts us in touch with the similar dilemma, how Bridget Jones becomes a widow, and then she tries to find her way back into life. And four years on, she's kind of tackling this this dilemma of of whether she should grieve or live, and and how do you begin life? How do you begin to invest in life again? So that's probably, you know, another subject for another kind of episode, but it was so beautifully timed with our conversation today about life and loss. And, you know, Amy did an incredibly impossible thing for many people, and and I think it's really worth mentioning that. And and I've got this one sentence from the essay, essay, and when she says I'm wrapping this up on Valentine's Day, she wrote, and the most genuine, non faith oriented gift I can hope for is that the right person reads this, finds Jason, and another love story begins. And I'm just kind of thinking because it happened at the point where I suspect things were, I mean, obviously, we never know when we're Monika die, but I think weeks before death, there's usually some some sense of preparation or thinking about the impending death and and and things like that. So she must have been really in touch with what was coming and really putting you and your future in the center, which, I mean, just says something about the her as a person, but also Yes. Your relationship that that that something like this came up. And, obviously, what I'm really interested is what you did with this. And, well, first of all, how how did that make you feel reading it? But also and you talk a little bit about that in your brilliant book. But I really want to kind of hear your your perspective now and how that's changed over the years.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: But being given that kind of Valentine's gift in that form, which Yeah. You know, I mean, I remember myself when my husband was in the hospice. I mean, it was a very different experience, and, we can mention that later in the interview. But but that kind of sense of her presence at that late stage of her illness is quite remarkable. And she was still writing. She was still there. But but I wonder what was that like for you to receive that at the time? Well, a\
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Jason Rosenthal: couple of things. First of all, you know, what was beautiful about this process, which was approaching the end of her life, was that we did have a lot of time to really have some intense conversations, you know, about some of her hopes and desires for the kids and for me and all that. But I did not know exactly what she was writing as she was Right. Sort of taking these little micro naps and, as you said, laboring through this this final project that she really needed and wanted to get done. And so as I reflect on it, I really, I mean, it was such a gift to me, such a gift to me to be given that express permission, that proverbial blank blank space that she left me. I just don't know how I could have moved forward and, you know, done things like started dating and things like that without without that permission, you know, and still to this day. Right? I I go through phases of, you know, wondering how my relationship, my current relationship is gonna be, interpreted and things like that. But I fall back on that, on that gift that you gave me.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. And I think there's something about that maturity of having the space or time making room for those conversations. But also, as you're saying, she didn't just give you permission. I think she gave permission to other people to think that way, that it's possible because it's, you know, it's really quite quite a shock to hear that coming from someone who's about to die and real sign of love. But I think what you're saying is that that kind of permission really allowed you to even begin to think about, okay, there's there's a fee there's future after this. I I I there's life after after loss before it even happened. And I wonder how your relationship with this permission evolved or changed over time, whether it was easy to take in or or whether you struggled with some of those kind of processes because, obviously, grief is a is a huge, I don't wanna say obstacle, but it's it's a huge process to go through before you can even begin to reengage with life.\
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Jason Rosenthal: Oh, sure. Yeah. But I like what you said because it's really true. You know, it was a gift to the universe. There's no question about it. And as I started to do some public speaking and talking about these areas and, my part of my message was, hey. I don't care how young you are. You need to start having conversations about the end of life when you're healthy. You know? Because, certainly, my experience was not unique that many people go through, a terminal illness that takes quite quite a bit of time. But others are less fortunate. You know? Sudden loss is a really difficult difficult concept. And so have the conversations early. I'll say it again right here on your podcast, because it really does it does help not only you and the person who you're going to lose, but those around you and your family and all that too. So but, you know, the world becomes, as you well know, just super foggy for a great deal of time after grief, after a loss, as part of grief. And, that that process is obviously unique and different for every Jason. But the common theme is eventually, eventually, you begin to emerge in whatever way that is for the individual. Right? And part of that emerging is slowly finding a way to enjoy life, to to find a little bit of happiness, to return to those things that brought you joy previously and and and and, of course, find new experiences. So I I guess the answer to your questions is that it it it really, really helped me through all of those phases of grief, for sure.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Mhmm. And, you know, I'm just thinking because she was such a, in some ways, big personality in terms of people remembering her, and I and you you write beautifully about that in the book, how she really moved and influenced a lot of people with her, you know, with the way she was as a Jason, and and that was a big part of her mission. So I'm kind of thinking when you lose someone like that, one thing that comes to my mind is it's really hard and that happens in general in grief that we start to idealize people who died and, you know, and obviously she was a special person for you and there's no question about that. But I wonder, you know, in some ways, I can see also that being an obstacle for some people. How do you then begin to even create the space for someone else? And I know you obviously mentioned that you are in a new relationships, so obviously things have changed quite a bit, and maybe we could think about that as well. But but but obviously, it's not I can see that in some ways it might not be that simple to\
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Jason Rosenthal: I see what you're saying. Sure.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: To make room for someone else when you're you've had something so special and you, you know, you clearly had a very successful marriage, meaning that workable marriage. Obviously, not there is no such a thing as as a perfect marriage, but there was clearly saturated with love and commitment.\
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Jason Rosenthal: Well, you know, I guess a couple of things. First of all, you never let that go. That's always gonna be a part of who you are. Right? And, yes, I had that tremendous gift. I I I recognize that. I recognize that. And, I try to give people a little bit of relationship advice, though that's not my that's not my wheelhouse. But, you know, the essay that you're referencing obviously brought Amy to the attention of many people who did not know her previously. She was a successful author, a very prolific children's book author, for example. She published 35 picture books at the by the age of 51, and she didn't start writing those books until, after after our youngest daughter was born. So in a very short period of time.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Wow. Yet,\
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Jason Rosenthal: at the same time, I sort of think about what her mother would say, and that is that before the essay, before any of the of the fame, you know, Amy was just an incredible human being. And so there's kind of two sides to what you're talking about. First of all, she's just Amy, you know, to a lot of us. To you. Yes. And, yes, there was a a decent amount of publicity because of this, but I really never got stuck, I guess you could say, replacing quote unquote Amy. That's not that's not my goal. That's not an objective of mine. Right? It's just continuing on with my life, my values, and how I wanna walk through the world.\
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Jason Rosenthal: And I have been lucky to find a partner to do that.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: And I wonder, which point did you start to feel that it was possible to begin to think about, you know, a new relationship? I mean, did you start dating or what how did that come about?\
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Jason Rosenthal: Oh, gosh. I don't even know. I mean, that's a great question. I think it's a little too complex. I can't pinpoint a specific time. Mhmm. Yeah. It just just happened naturally.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Mhmm. So did you have some kind of period of time when you definitely felt it wasn't something you've been thinking about initially, the initial state of grief, and then just somehow it kind of became possible? Is that what you're saying that it's not like yet? Yeah.\
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Jason Rosenthal: I mean, like yeah. Like I said, you emerge, you know, you emerge and you tend to take little baby steps into the possibility of experiencing joy and beauty again in your life. And that's what I did. But before that, as you well know, it's just a ball of almost lost time. And that is actually an empirically true statement, you know, in the in the study of of grief. That fog at the beginning really just I mean, there are definitely periods of time at the beginning. I I barely even remember. Yeah. You know?\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. No. I can I can completely relate to the time distortion is so huge and that sense of just being completely discombobulated and and not really in touch with reality? It's a it's a very different state of mind, and and I think a lot of people talk about it as something, very negative. But I don't know about you, but I kind of have a bit of like a I think it was a very special time at the same time. It was obviously incredibly difficult, but there was there's also something about holding those memories really tight, really close to yourself and and not having this kind of pressure to return to to normal life, which is a very different state of mind, you know, when you think about it. It only is possible, I think, when we're grieving that we have this permission not to be so busy with life, with kind of the next project, the next thing you need to do. And and suddenly, the space emerges that that is kind of for you to obviously, not everyone enough time to be focusing on that, and not not everyone will experience that because some people have they have to go to work or they look after the children, and they're so preoccupied that they they don't really make that room for grief. But reading your book, I think it it became it was quite transparent that you did have that kind of space. And and is it grad as you're saying, gradual process because you can't just be catapulted out of that space too quickly Right. And be ready to live. You know? You need that kind of like, being enveloped in your grief and that kind of fog. It's you know? Because being hit by reality so quickly and having to be a functioning fully functioning adult straight away would be really fine.\
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Jason Rosenthal: Right. No. It's a it's a very good point. And, you know, time is a very, very interesting thing. But as the calendar moves forward, which it inevitably will, hopefully, and, you continue to take one foot in front of the other and and live your life, And now, as you said, it's been almost eight years. It's almost as if when that the intensity of that initial grief returns, which it does periodically, it's almost like a gift, honestly, because, you know, regular everyday life gets in the way, new relationships gets in the way, your your commitment to your family and all of those things get in the way. And then when you feel that sense again of of sort of how you felt at the beginning, I consider it lean into that. You know what I mean? And it's happened to me a few times for sure. I think I write a little bit about, my experience in going to Burning Man. I do actually definitely write about it. There's a little chapter about it. But I'll take a minute just to mention it because it's so powerful and that there was a a grieving temple at Burning Man. It's a huge part of the festivities there and it's one of the most powerful spaces that I've ever been in in my entire life.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Right.\
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Jason Rosenthal: And it's people grieving very individually, you know, right next to one another, but it's also a collective space to grieve. And the power in that is absolutely unbelievable. So, you know, the first time I went there, it was me just sitting in that grief and really being overcome with emotion. Another time I was there, it wasn't the floodgates didn't open quite as much, but there was someone next to me who was in that same space that I had been. And so I was able to be there for this random stranger, and it was really, really, really powerful.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. And and kind of what I think what you're describing is this ability to cherish grief, you know, like, as you're saying, it's not something that frightens you. I don't get an impression that it's something you're trying to run away from, but just kind of it's like a welcoming, you know, you welcome it. It's like a visitor that comes in and it comes and goes. And I don't think people often talk about having a wave of grief, and I think it's Right.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: It is something of that kind of nature that you never know when it's gonna come. You never know what you're gonna end up feeling, but there's also so much love in there. And and I I think we live in a society where there isn't enough room for those kind of experiences, but it's, you know, such a loss in itself that you have to cut off. I think a lot of people just cut off from that. And, obviously, inevitably, that means that they can't be fully integrated as human beings. And as you're saying, you know, just kind of if you were to leave Amy behind and and just focus on the future, that would be even worse. I think, you know, that that's even greater loss, paradoxically, isn't it? Like, there's something about grief that actually helps you to embrace, and a lot of people talk about how the grief transforms their lives. And and I know that, obviously, you you were hugely influenced by that experience because, obviously, as you said, you were a lawyer. And then suddenly, you were you entered this grief world, and you obviously changed your career. I wonder if you can say a bit more about, you know, how that transformed you and what Sure. Yeah. What happened?\
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Jason Rosenthal: Well, I had a unique position because as I, you know, carried on public speaking, I would talk about Amy very openly. You know, I wanted people to experience what kind of a soul she was and the gift that she provided to to the world. So that would include talking about us. It included, you know, some of her work, which is still out there for people to find, and I love it because I I want people to find it. And so that allowed me to continue to literally talk about her. Right? And then, you know, one other thing that you and I talked about a little bit before we started, which is, these milestones that happen, you know, birthdays, the anniversary of her death, and all of those things. And surely those, for most people, are opportunities to pause and to reflect and to sit in that grief a little bit. And that changes year by year. Some years are tougher than others. But I really value those, those, those occasions too, to, you know, talk about her, watch some of her films, read a little bit of her work, visit with my daughter, you know, whatever it takes.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah.\
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Jason Rosenthal: Oh, and and you asked me a little bit about my current current\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: life. Yes.\
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Jason Rosenthal: And so I I spent, many years, writing and speaking, about the concept of grief and what it was like for me personally, but also trying to talk too as as it developed, about what resilience is to me and how one can emerge from an extraordinarily dark space in their life and come out showing some light and providing some light to to other people. And then I, like I said, I became known as this grief guy. And I decided that I do think I have this new calling, if you will, to support other people who are also experiencing grief and loss. And so I went back to school and got a after in social work, and now I am a practicing therapist supporting children, adolescents, adults, and families that are experiencing grief of all different types. And I am also the associate director of a sliding scale grief and loss clinic in the Chicagoland area. So really meaningful, meaningful work. I just didn't see that, returning to my, legal days was was meaningful anymore. Uh-huh. You know, fighting with insurance companies and, of course, other lawyers. And, yeah, I was done with that. So Yeah.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. And I think that is obviously, you're not the first person I'm talking to who shares this kind of transformation in terms of your own identity and how you start to reevaluate what really matters to you. And as you say, you call you know, you just found another way of expressing yourself and transforming something really valuable painful, but valuable, it seems, to, connecting with other people who also experienced loss and, you know, you know, I can say exactly the same. And one of the reasons why this podcast exists is to connect and to have those meaningful conversations. And, you know, it's it's always surprising what comes out of them and and whether that's in clinic with patients, but but also, obviously, with through the podcast and getting to know people like yourself Dr either written books or practitioners or or have done things in this grief field is incredibly valuable. And and and and Yeah. Plus it helps you process your own grief. Because every time you have those conversations, even if it is like you were talking about, witnessing other people's grief and the kind of this in this temple and this community of Grievers earlier, I thought that there's something incredibly validating about being part of the community and having that permission to experience either your own grief, but also other people's grief. And and I can see the value of that. Speaking, you know, you talked about, you know, having your TED talk and having the the experience of sharing your perspective and and sharing bits of Amy with the world, which, you know, is so incredibly valuable. Because if we keep it all to ourselves, it's like they didn't exist, you know, in the outside world. But there's something really important about having that message and putting it out there, which I I suspect that was also the reason behind the book because, you know, I don't know how this idea came to you to write about it. It's obviously a memoir. It's a very personal account of your perspective. We know, obviously, Amy's perspective from from her essay, but you're presenting completely your account of what that was like. But I wonder where did the idea come from?\
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Jason Rosenthal: Well, like I mentioned earlier, I really, when I wrote the Modern Love column, I was approached by a publishing company to see if I wanted to expand it into book form. And I think a lot of what you said is completely true. I I was given this opportunity to share with others that hopefully would support them and help them through a similar process. And that that opportunity came about and is essentially evergreen. Right? I mean, it it can be referred to by other people. You just discovered it, for example. Right? And, it continue I continue to get responses from random people still to this day, at least once a week. And so that's that's how it really came about. You know, the book is in three sections, essentially. And I wrote a lot about what our relationship was like because I wanted to peel back the curtain, if you will, on those two people that were talked about in in Amy's essay and to show a little bit about what a good relationship can be like. And then the third the the second third is that really, really tough part where Amy got sick and we went through hospice. And I think the reception I got from the TED talk about really candidly talking about what it's like to be with someone at the end of their life helped me to to write this section of the book because immediately people came up to me and said, oh my god. I I went through that same experience, and I've never heard anyone really talk about it in such detail. It's it's really so true. And, you know, it's it's a painful part of the book to get through. Yeah. Absolutely. But also it's, I think, raw and honest. And I share a little bit about what it's like to communicate with someone who has is going through the grief experience. And then the last third of the book really talks about that concept I touched upon earlier, which is how can we find resilience? How can we return to a a life of Monika, and even happiness and joy, believe it or not?\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. And, it's possible. And it's something that if we open to it, it really can take place Jason it doesn't take away from the happiness and pain that you've experienced in\
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Jason Rosenthal: There you go. That lifestyle. Beautiful. I agree. Yeah.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. And and but in me I think a lot of people who are at this initial state of grief, they they really struggle to see that. And, you know, it kind of, you know, I was really moved by that middle part of the book when you talk about her illness and the the very visceral experience of how she was unable to eat. And and I thought, well, this was really moving partially because that was very much my experience with my husband. But he was unable to eat for about six months. He had bowel cancer, so his bowel stopped working around, I think, February time, and he died in October. So it was a long process of kind of, you know, kind of living, but in a really weird state where, you know, it's such a basic thing as nutrition, tasting life, tasting and and that kind of gradually kind of decreasing, which when I was reading your book that kind of could really relate to this process when you when you notice because I think I don't know how long exactly it was that Amy wasn't able to eat. But it was kind of towards the end that she had the bowel obstruction. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. It was\
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Jason Rosenthal: almost inevitably three months,\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: which is Yeah.\
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Jason Rosenthal: Yeah. Defied the statistical odds for sure.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. Exactly. And I think there's also this whole idea of, you know, which is obviously incredibly painful of not knowing how long things would take at the very end. And it's just there's just so much there that it just made me think when you wrote about your own difficulty. I think what was particularly moving for me when you were writing about your own difficulty with visceral experience of her illness and, you know, she had a don't know if she had a stoma back at the time or it was some kind of you talk about kind of\
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Jason Rosenthal: We had a fistula, which is\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: like, you know,\
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Jason Rosenthal: sort of an opening. Yeah.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. So and then there was a bag attached to that, presumably.\
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Jason Rosenthal: No.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: No? No. Oh, okay. K. K. Not normally. And I think in The UK, in those situations, you would have something because with the bowel obstruction, you usually have that kind of something kind of pinging, collecting the fluids coming out. Right. But it's interesting because, obviously, that changes the experience of you know, and you're kind of much more exposed to this process, gradual process of the body dying and decaying and and and kind of yeah. It's just, as you're saying, not many people talk about. So we will put a link to your TED talk in the show notes for people to to look at and and listen to. But as you're saying, you know, it's not something we really talk about at all, really. You know, what is it like to live with someone who's about to die and you don't know when? And there's kind of space in between the process that kind of evolves over time. And so so I really incredibly valued your honesty and your kind of description of what it was like. Under one hand, I think you talk about having her at home and looking after her and in some ways taking a lot from that time. And then the other being met with relationships, your own reactions that were obviously very difficult. I wonder whether you can say a bit more about that. What what do you remember from that time?\
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Jason Rosenthal: Sure. I mean, first of all, I wanted to just it made me think about, a recent conversation I had, and I I imagine you probably think about this periodically too, which is what is the moment that we realize that we had that final coherent, if you will, conversation with someone who is at the end of their life? What is that moment? Right? Was it at the point where the diagnosis occurred? Because everything changes right then. Was it the moment that she had a twelve hour surgery to try and eradicate this this cancer that was growing inside her body? Was it, you know, the last time that she was able to take a bite of food? I mean, all of those moments, it's just so powerful to think about. You know? So anyway, I I digress a little bit.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: No. But I really appreciate that comment. I think they're they are all part of it. You know, for me, it would just kind of I don't think that loss happens at one point in time. I think it's with anticipatory grief, which what you're describing is defined as it is bit by bit. You lose that person bit by bit, and, it's, yeah, it's very difficult to describe to someone who haven't experienced it. That that loss happens over and over again. You lose the hopes when you get that initial diagnosis, then you lose the physical capacity to do things, to be physically mobile or to leave the leave the house whenever you want to or to be painless. You know, there was kind of moments or eating, you know, that was an incredible loss for me personally when he stopped eating. When you're you can eat, but that person can't. I mean, I found it excruciating, you know, to be put in that position for so loss. And because this person still lives, but they can't eat. They they still can work around and and go home, but they can't eat. And that was I think if I had to pick one, that inability to eat was the most difficult to deal with for me personally, because it, you know, we still had quite a long time to live for him, you know, in terms of the time scale.\
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Jason Rosenthal: I mean, that's almost unbelievable with the your story that you're telling that that he survived that long.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Well, he had intravenous feed, so he was kind of kept artificially alive, if you like, which is often what happens when someone's bowel's not working, but they can still they're physically still able to live. Because I think maybe the difference with your I mean, I'm not in I'm not entirely sure, obviously. I'm not a Monika, but if it's towards the end of life, they probably wouldn't offer that. But because he was it was the paradox of the fact that he was still able to function, could walk around, but his bowel was blocked. Gotcha. So he wasn't able to absorb food in the normal way. So for for that kind of they said, well, it could be a year. It could be two years. It could be less. You know, you never know. But but it's this experience of kind of\
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Jason Rosenthal: Right. You probably began to witness, you know, the physical decline at that moment. And that's really, really intensely rough to to go through. Yeah. You just watch this person, to be frank, really just sort of evaporate in in front of your eyes. And that's, as I write about and talk about, that's a memory that you are not soon to forget if ever. And it's very, very powerful. Yeah.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: But I think the fact that we can talk about these things in a way that doesn't overwhelm in the same way. I think that's the that's the power of having those conversations that when I look back at that time\
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Jason Rosenthal: Mhmm.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: You know, and I'm sure you can share some of that kind of impression is that you look back and you think, yes. That was probably the hardest thing I've ever experienced in life. But I survived, and it was really tough. It was really hard, but it really kind of showed the the resilience and the kind of the capacity to live with death because I think that's what I've learned is that you can live with someone who's dying and and and you still live, and you live in a way that allows you to take more from life later on.\
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Jason Rosenthal: Mhmm.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: And that's the kind of that's the the transformation that I think we often, and you write about that in your book as well, that, you know, that happens at the point when loss also allows you to open door to another reality that I think most people who haven't experienced a significant loss can't really understand is that the real value of life and and what you can get from it and and and what you appreciate we had as well, you know, all those years.\
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Jason Rosenthal: Yeah. You know, I mean, for whatever reason, Amy lived her life that way, appreciating every Monika, and she talked a lot about that. And for others like me, it does take a significant loss, something like this, to really appreciate what you have and to, like you said, take those moments every day, to appreciate the fact that you're still here, the fact that you are experiencing life and love even in the even in the middle of a lot of chaos that's going on in this world and in this country in particular to sort of appreciate that you that you have what you have in this life. Take baby steps to do that, you know. It's not Monika happen for you right away. It's really, really important, I think, to send that message out to people, you know, that you're here, you're contributing to the world, and it's okay. It's okay, to experience happiness, to thrive in the new life that you've been given. And that, by default, is going to make you appreciate, you know, these moments that you have.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. I have this kind of reflection that recently became very obvious to me that, you know, grief, unprocessed grief about all the losses we've experienced in life, not just kind of death, but also day to day losses or or kind of the things we didn't have when we were younger or those kind of experiences that are missing from our lives that, you know, I think I definitely reflecting back on my life, I often feel as if, you know, one thing that was holding me back and that death of my late husband kind of confronted me with was this kind of experience of of of actually never fully acknowledging and working through those other losses that when you kind of hit, like, with a ton of brick, you know, with with that with that particular loss, for me, it was almost like this realization. Okay. I I don't think I've ever lived fully. I've never kind of appreciated until I was confronted with with that tremendous loss because, you know, we're not just talking about, you know, the loss of the life partner, but we're talking about all the secondary losses and and how do you then begin to reinvest in life and that kind of transition.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: I think it can only be possible once you, in some ways, allow yourself to be in that space and mourn, which is different. I mean, mourning, the process of mourning is different to this initial start stage of grief when you're just in shock and you can't really process the information. It's just this as as you were saying, those moments when the waves come back and and you're hit by those experiences and you're open to it and you embrace it and you take it within and make room for it, but also allow this kind of second world to evolve around you, which is, you know, like you were talking about. Suddenly, without pushing it, you felt ready to to be with someone else and and to make room for for those for for this other person. And I wonder whether you have any kind of ideas or tips how that happened for you or or maybe what I'm I suppose thinking more specifically is what was really important for you to allow this to to happen in your case, but also, you know, what what kind of message were you sending to people who are struggling? And I'm I'm I suspect Monika the Valentine's Day, this is something that is on minds of a lot of people who have lost their life partners. How do you celebrate Valentine's Day, you know, when when you've experienced something so profound?\
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Jason Rosenthal: Okay. Well, I I'll try to answer your question, but one of the things I realized pretty quickly because keep in mind that essay, and I I also talk about some humorous stories that happened after the essay appeared and the the responses that I received, which were pretty extraordinary. You know, I was inundated with not just emails but letters and trinkets and pieces of art and books and recommendations on what to do next and all of these things and proposals, a few of those. Yeah. But what it allowed me to recognize is that what I've said before is that loss is loss is loss, you know. And I at first, I was getting these really long handwritten letters from people who, for example, had gone through a divorce. And I said, why are you comparing your loss of going through a divorce with what I just went through? You don't know who what I had and what I lost and all that. And I quickly just put that to the side because I recognized that, like you said, people experience losses of all kinds of different things. You know, they a divorce, the loss of a business, the loss because of an addiction, the loss of a pet. Many people experience that and it's overwhelming and it's often, you know, a kid's first experience with death, and many other many other things people shared with me. Yeah. And I think that allowed me to, I don't know, just to get a perspective get a perspective. And as I and as I dove really deep into this whole area of grief and loss, of course, I read stories and and continue to and hear stories that are really, really, really intensely powerful. And people go through a lot of loss in their lives, you know. And somehow, I can't I can't put my finger on it. I don't know about you, but somehow I think in my genetic makeup, I am a resilient person, and I just never knew it. You know? And I'm not saying it's easy. Trust me. You know? I could have been, like I've said before, the guy at the end of the bar, knee deep in a bottle of whiskey, but I just I chose to emerge somehow, you know, and I think I did that largely for those around me that that rely on me, you know, but it happened. Mhmm.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: But it I think that in itself is really telling and very interesting that, you can only discover the resilience once your your kind of capacity to deal with things is being tested. But I think there are several things I was thinking about when I was reading your book that I I think actually could have been fundamental. I don't know what you think about that. But what was kind of most striking while I was kind of reading through the pages was just the amount of support in kind of, like, community, family, community that was really holding the whole situation. And when we think about what is resilience, and I think often this term is, I think, misinterpreted in the general public as how strong you are as a person, how irresistible in terms of, you know, no matter what life throws at you, you can just survive, which kind of fuels this kind of sense of independence.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Like, I'm the strong Jason. That's just, you know, who I am, which actually after when we look back into early experiences of these people is actually the the sense of self sufficiency, which can be extremely tested at the time of grief and often is the the element that can, prevent people from seeking help and actually being resilient at the time of grief. So it's the opposite. It's actually the I thought that the fact that you had so many people that and you write about those people, in the book, your family, and how they all that you were together and never had a sense of you being on your own in a book. There was always almost like crowds of people around not crowds, but, like, groups of people with you helping you get through this and and being invested and involved. And and I think that is fundamentally, to me, a factor when I look at not just grief, but through my experience as a psychologist throughout my career. If I have to pick one thing that is fundamentally responsible for our capacity to be resilient is our ability to access our resources, to ask for help, to, in some ways, be in a in an environment that can nurture you and help you get through the worst. And it's not to say that people who are in a very disadvantaged sort of from very disadvantaged kind of environment don't are not resilient. But I think there's usually is in that story. What you notice is that these people were able to tap into certain resources and they were able to find them. It's a bit like with food. If you're if you're starving, unless you find food that will nourish you, you won't survive. So your capacity to look for things, but also the environment in which you are, has a a tremendous impact. And and it's not just the fact that there were loads of people around you, I thought, but it was the fact that they were invested, that that you described your family as a very kind of strong and involved and and present, which, you know, must have been in some ways easier to to work through your grief because and and and and I don't know what it was like after Amy died with the with the there was a time in moments in time when you didn't really want to be around people. Maybe maybe there were that times as well, but but I think that that the social support is is essential in all of that. It's not just us.\
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Jason Rosenthal: Right. I just wanna be clear. Yeah. No. That's such a great point, and I 100% agree with you. You know? Community is vital whether you've gone through grief or depression or anxiety or just struggling a little bit, you know, having a strong community. I think it's also been proved empirically is, good for longevity also. You know? People live longer when they're surrounded by community. But I do wanna just, I don't know, clarify, that anybody, right, who's been through a similar experience is gonna find a lot of isolated, dark, really sad moments. And I was no exception. Yes. I, of course, had a a really strong community around me. My friends were incredible. But, right, that that comes a little after.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah.\
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Jason Rosenthal: You know, when you're when you're able to allow it in. Let's put\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: that one. Absolutely.\
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Jason Rosenthal: Yes. I mean, I was unique. I I I acknowledge that that I I you know, for example, I still have my mother who's 87 years old, and she's still working, and she's strong, and she's, you know, she is always there for me and lifts me up and, you know, and then Amy's family and my my partner and my children and and my good friends. You know, I've had a couple of friends, since I'm five years old. It's a unique thing.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. But it also shows the strength of relationships and what kind of helps us survive because, actually, the most common response to grief is a resilient response, which is to to reinvest into other relationships, those bits, those aspects of us. And that's what helps us survive because we are relational beings, and and and, you know, you can't survive without them. But as you're saying, it's that kind of transitional period when you have to withdraw from people. You have to kind of go inwards. Grief is a very personal journey as you're saying. Then then there are moments when you come out of it and and you reinvest in life and and then you withdraw again. And then it's a bit of a like, I often often think of it as a dance. You know? It's one way or the other. You know? It's never an easy Yes. Journey. But but I think what you're saying is that that that's been incredibly valuable. Loss, on top of that, obviously, the relationship you had with Amy, which was obviously saturated with love and honesty and transparency. And, you know, we know from psychotherapy field in general that the more complicated the relationship with the person who died is, not just how close we are, but also how complicated, conflicted we are about the person who died, the harder it is to grieve because there's unfinished business after. There are things that haven't been said. There are things that we haven't been able to process and let go of. And and then when we enter the state of grief, then, you know, it's it's a bit too late, and there's a lot of regrets. There's there are obviously, regrets, I think, are always there to some extent. You always think I should have said something. But then I think what you were describing is obviously that you did take as you said at the beginning, you did have that time to talk to Amy and and to plan for the future to involve her in that, and she was very involved in that. And I think I think for our listeners, what is really important is to, I think, recognize that it's not just the loss, who we lost, but how our relationship was shaped and how we deal with it and how we support it that really matters in those moments and often dictates how long it takes us to return to more kind of functioning state where we can grieve and live simultaneously. And it's a long process most of the time, but for some people will be prolonged because of unfinished business that's been left behind.\
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Jason Rosenthal: Very true. Very true. It kind of returns to what we talked about earlier about really trying to have some conversations now and early to think about catching up really tricky relationships and things like that.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Having closure. Yeah. I think that's really, really important, and that obviously brings us to the end of the conversation. And I think that that in itself, I just really wanted to kind of to highlight that because it's part of the mission you're on is to help people deal with grief before it happens in some ways. You know? Just deal with this unfinished business of, you know, what needs to be said, what conversations we need to have with people we love before they die, but also how we can resolve some of those things by facing our feelings and and working through them. It's also possible after they die, but it just needs a bit more work. And it's I think by that time, it's a bit more complicated. So prevention is always a better strategy than treatment. So I'm really glad we we've heard this conversation, and thank you so much for your time and, you know, passion to talk about grief and sharing your your expertise in that field, both through your lived experience, but now also as a practitioner. So we will put links in the show notes to your book when people can buy your book, when they can read the Jason, and find out about the clinic in Chicago. As you mentioned, it's a a sliding scale clinic, so it's obviously accessible to wider group of people. And we obviously part of this podcast is to kind of share resources and help people connect with places that are obviously designed for supporting people who are grieving. So thank you so much for today.\
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Jason Rosenthal: Yeah. My final message, you know, just I I feel like I didn't answer one of your questions, which was about Valentine's Day. And I guess I would equate it with any other holiday. You know? It's it's it's certainly a milestone that you have a floodgate of memories about. But, you know, at the same time, if you are experiencing both grief and joy or even love with someone new, those two things can live simultaneously. You know, and if you don't have a new partner or if it's not an option for you at this moment, you know, it is a moment to lean into the grief and and just let it let it come and and practice some self care and and you will get through this day.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Wow. That's a beautiful message on Valentine's Day, but I think valid for the rest of the year. So thank you so much. Alright.\
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Jason Rosenthal: Well, thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure and a nice conversation. Thank you.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Thank you for joining us. I hope you found it useful. Connect with me on Facebook and Instagram under Guide to Afterlife for more brief tips and resources. Visit guideto after Com to send me your questions and to take part in the Grief MOT, your free first aid program for grief. See you next Tuesday for yet another stimulating conversation.\
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Season 2, Episode 7: My Wife Said You May Want to Marry Me: Embracing Life After Loss with Jason Rosenthal

The Grief MOT

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