Season 2, Ep 8. How to Navigate Work After Loss: What Every Widow Should Know. A Conversation with Dr Mekel Harris and Janet Gwilliam-Wright.

Season #2 March 11, 2025

Are you struggling to balance your grief with work responsibilities? You're not alone. In our latest Guide to Afterlife podcast episode, we tackle the challenging topic of returning to work after loss. Our special guests, Dr. Mekel Harris and Janet Gwilliam-Wright, founders of BloomWell Partners, share invaluable insights on:

• Common challenges grieving employees face
• How workplace culture impacts the grieving process
• Practical accommodations employers can offer
• Ways colleagues can provide meaningful support
• The importance of grief literacy in organisations

Key takeaways:

Grief is invisible but profoundly impacts work performance
Both employees and employers have roles in facilitating a healthy return to work
Proactive planning and open communication are crucial

Don't miss out on these expert strategies for navigating grief in the workplace.

Resources:

Ready to move from surviving to thriving after loss? Visit guidetoafterlife.com to access our free Grief MOT program - your first-aid kit for grief.

Don't forget to subscribe to A Guide to After Life podcast list to be notified of more conversations about navigating grief: https://www.guidetoafterlife.com/podcast-signup

- Book a free 15-consultation with me to discuss the results of your Grief MOT

- Find out about Grief Group Therapy that I offer

- Unsure whether to see a psychologist, psychotherapist or counsellor or grief coach for grief support? Read this blog post to find out more.

Guests Bios:

Janet Gwilliam-Wright has over twenty years of experience leading large organisational change and working on complex policy issues. A leader in the grief and loss space, Janet founded the Motherlove Project, a global platform for motherless daughters in 2020. Janet received a Master of Arts and Master of Public Administration from Queen's University. She and her partner Meghan live in Ottawa, Ontario with their two amazing daughters.

Dr. Mekel Harris is a licensed psychologist, TEDx speaker, author, and CEO of Harris Psychological Services, LLC. She provides training, education, and consultation to organisations around the globe, as well as individual and group therapy services. Dr. Harris is co-founder of Bloomwell Partners, LLC, a consulting firm that equips corporate entities with the skills necessary to afford grief-informed leadership and care within the workplace. Throughout the past decade, she has presented at >30 domestic and international conferences and has been interviewed on several podcasts, with topics ranging from grief and loss to community mental health and trauma. Dr. Harris has been featured as a mental health expert on FOX13 Memphis, published articles in several major publications, and served as a professional contributor to popular magazines. In 2016, she wrote Relaxing Into the Pain, a faith-based memoir that highlights her grief journey – one filled with peaks, valleys, and spiritual crossroads.

How to connect with Mekel and Janet:

Website: www.mekelharrisphd.com Bloomwell Partners: www.growwithbloomwell.com LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/drmekelharris
Facebook: www.facebook.com/DrMekel Instagram: drmekel Twitter: @DrMekel

Your Host’s BIO:

Dr Monika Wieliczko, Chartered Clinical Psychologist D.Clin.Psych, MSc, MA

Psychologist by profession, and a widow, in private.

Connect with me on social media:

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Episode Transcript

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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Welcome to Guide to Afterlife, your go to podcast for young widows. I'm your host, doctor Monica Velichko, a psychologist and your fellow widow. Each episode brings you insights from world renowned grief experts and authors discussing complex grief issues and their personal experiences of loss. My aim is to challenge the way you think, empower you to face your feelings and help you develop resilient ways to grief. Move beyond surviving each day and visit guidetoafterlife.com to take part in the Grief MOT, your first aid program for grief.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: In today's episode, we're talking about returning to work after loss and navigating grief challenges in the workplace. And I first would like to start with a note about how challenging Monika this is. Many people after losing a life partner or any other significant loss find themselves navigating not only grief but also financial struggles when one of the partner is no longer there to support them, often in the context of solo parenting and having no choice but to return to work fairly soon after loss. And I've invited two very special guests to talk about grief in the workplace, Doctor. Mekel Harris, a licensed psychologist, TEDx speaker, author, and CEO of Harris Psychological Services.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: She provides training, education, and consultation to organizations around around the globe, as well as individual and group therapy. Doctor Harris is a cofounder of BloomWell Partners, a consulting firm that equips corporate entities with the skills necessary to afford grief informed leadership and care within workplace. And in 02/2016, she also wrote a book called Relaxing into Pain, which is a faith based memoir that describes her grief journey. And my second guest is Janet Gwilliam-Wright. She's a cofounder alongside Mekel of Bloomers Partners, and she has over twenty years of experience leading large organizational change and working on complex policy issues. She's a leader in the grief and loss space. Janet also founded the Motherlove project, which is a global platform for motherless daughters in 02/2020. Janet received a master's in arts and Masters of Public Administration from Queen's University, and she also co founded the Blummers Partners with Doctor. Mikael, as I mentioned. So we've got them both today. Welcome, Janet and Mikael.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: Hi, Monica.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Thank you. We're glad to be here.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Ah, it's great to have you both here. I would like to start if you maybe both could introduce yourself a little bit. First of all, what got you interested in working with organizations, but also this kind of passion for supporting people who are returning to workplace and saying a few things about each other. So if we could start with you, Janet.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: Sure. Thank you. Well, as you mentioned, I launched the mother love project in 2020 to honor the twenty fifth anniversary of my mother's death. So my mom died when I was 18, in 1995, and I really wanted to honor her, on what was a pretty big milestone. So I I started the project in in 2020, and it was through that that Michelle and I connected Mhmm. Over very, very, beautifully over social media and just forced us really strong connection. And I have a lot of experience leading in various organizations, and I just knew that I had a calling to do something to help managers. The pandemic really showed how complex and difficult managing has become. Managers are really struggling And this is an area that we knew really needed support and education and advocacy. And so as somebody who, you know, has my own personal experience with grief, but not being a mental health professional, I thought it was really important to partner with somebody who is a mental health professional and who better than one of the best people in this space. So I I reached out to my Mekel to see if she would be interested in doing this work with me. And, thankfully, she said yes. So that's how we that's how we started Real Wild Partners. But I'll let, Mekel talk about, her her experience in this space.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Thank you. So my entree into grief and loss, was born out of my own mom's death in December 2012. And at that time, I was really unconsciously wanting to become what I needed at the time. That's what led to the individual grief therapy interventions. My dad passed away in March 2020, the week before the world shut down. And at that point, I was working in a traditional sort of eight to five Monika through Friday role. And I realized just the difficulty associated with the bereavement leave in that position and my inability to sort of thrive in the environment. So that led to me leaving the position. That really sparked some some thought around, wanting to serve organizations to help have them learn, what grief is, how to better support grieving employees. And then as Janet mentioned, we met, serendipitously through social media and had the same vision.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: And so we decided to put our forces together in 2020, 2023 and launch BloomWell Partners. And it's it's been an amazing experience thus far.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Oh, that's a that's a beautiful story in how grief brings people together. I'm always impressed by that kind of genuine connection and passion that comes through working with your own grief and sharing that. That sounds quite special. And I suppose that's where I kind of wanted to start is thinking with you about the most kind of common challenges that grieving people face when they return to a workplace after a significant loss. And and I think one of the widows in, one of the social groups on Facebook, she gave an example of her struggles, which I wanted to kind of to bring up to kind of help us think a little bit more about an actual example of what it feels like to come come back to work. So this person is saying, I'm in a situation where my late husband and I and I worked at the same company. It has been difficult returning to work and having to see and work with his coworkers. And she would like some advice and strategies to deal with this. So it's specifically about this kind of commonality of the ground, you know, which presumably work represents is such a big part of our lives. And and having having to face that world again after a significant loss must be quite quite difficult. So I so that's the kind of that's where I wanted to start with you today, thinking about the struggles, that people face.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Yeah. I'll say, especially in this specific incident, just the difficulty I can imagine for her to walk through the doors of that job and to have to confront all of the spaces, the individuals, the memories attached to that space on top of the person's own grieving. So I certainly wanna to honor how difficult that that is. The workplace, I think, is really unique in that we spend the vast majority of our days in work spaces, even more hours there than we do with our own families. And at the same time, that's also a space where we're sort of, assumed to separate our personal selves from the work environment. But as it pertains to grief, that's really difficult, especially for this individual. Right? Like, here's your here's your husband, and you're working with the person, and you're having to sort of navigate those and mentally separate it. So I think that leads to a lot of employees feeling isolated and stigmatized in the workplace because they it's virtually impossible to not bring your humanity to work, but it's also important to be able to compartmentalize it enough so that you can function and thrive within the workspace. So I'll I'll leave it at that, and I'd love to hear Janet's thoughts too.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: Yeah. Absolutely. Just to build on that, I think, you know, Mikaela and I often talk about grief as the elephant in the room and it is definitely in those rooms when, you know, this woman is going back to work and her her colleagues and her husband's colleagues are also grieving that loss. And so I think really naming that is so important. I think people who have gone through loss and gone back to work, as Nicole said, have felt very isolated because colleagues are worried about upsetting them or reminding them of the person that they lost. And in fact, that person that that loss is with them all the time. They don't need to be reminded. So really just I think broaching those conversations and saying this is how I'm feeling, this is really hard, I just wanna acknowledge how hard that is, just giving yourself grief, You know, there's going to be, you know, a a big period of adjustment that's gonna be required to be in that space again comfortably and not to feel that we have to rush it. I think one of the things that culturally we find is that we put these time pressures on ourselves and other people put these time pressures on us to heal or get over it or bounce back to normal. Well, it just isn't possible. And so I I think having the the grace and space for this woman to to give herself time but also to acknowledge those feelings with her coworkers to say, I know this is hard and I don't want you to feel awkward around me. You know, I want you to be able to talk to me about, you know, my spouse, I would love to share stories about him, to hear your stories, just to really have that connection because I think that that does reduce isolation, those bridges, and also helps with the person's healing. So that's what I would say, in this situation, it's complicated for sure. Yeah.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: And that kind of the thought that went through my mind as you were both speaking was that I think in some ways, there's this kind of fantasy as as as you put it that you should get over it. But it's almost like you go back to work. You're back to normal. There's some kind of, like, returning back to a state before loss, which is obviously impossible. You can't just go back to to this no normal after a significant loss. There's just a new normal, and you need to find your way back into that new environment. But I'm just always struck by the kind of the heat the the level of disturbance that people often feel when they have to go back, often not because they want to, but because of the finances or, you know, just not to lose their job or, you know, that it's not a choice. Often, it's not really a choice. Although I can imagine that there might be other people who would actually want to go back fairly quickly, or they feel like that would help them. So it's not necessary that everyone will struggle in the same way, but but I think for especially for those who are still very fragile and you're kind of facing this challenge of, yeah, having to be normal as it would be.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: But from what I'm hearing from both of you is that that's just not possible. That's just not going to happen. Well,\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: yeah. I think one of the things that makes grieving really difficult is that it's invisible. So the definition of grief is sort of the person the Monika that a person attaches to a loss, and that's an internal sort of representation of that. And so you can't look at someone and readily know, yes, they're grief. Now they may be expressing it externally through mourning, right, through tears or some other, affective changes. But within the workplace, I think you may have this employee coming back to work. They're looking like things are back to normal, quote, unquote. And that can really make it tricky for the employer to know what the person's needs are. And so there really is sort of a complimentary need for the employer to ask the questions and name that elephant in the room as Janet mentioned, and also for the employee to feel empowered to share what may be happening in their internal world, which is not easy. Yet it really is necessary so that everyone's aware of the landscape of grief in the space.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: I really like what you just said, Carol, especially about this invisible wound that it might not come up every minute of the day or working hour. It's just this kind of unpredictability of the grief, isn't it? That is what's often very challenging. Because I was just thinking about, you know, how does grief manifest in the workplace? Well, what would we normally see or from the point of view of the person who's coming back to work? What are the kind of challenges that people face in terms of symptoms or that would be particularly difficult in the workplace?\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: There are so many different manifestations of grief and I think that, culturally as Mekel mentioned because it is invisible, I think one of the things that we do expect from grievers is crying or sort of visible signs of distress. That's only one element of it. We know that grief has extensive cognitive, impacts. So, difficulty with decision making, difficulty prioritizing, difficulty with concentration, fatigue, the sort of, you know, executive functions that that become quite impacted. But, basically, it's, oh, grief is so tiring.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: It's tiring. It hurt the body hurts. You know, we're more susceptible to illness because our immune systems are depressed, our cortisone levels are spiking, but also social emotional impacts as well. So increased conflict with colleagues, we might see more irritability, more perceptions of conflict with people, miscommunication is very, you know, can happen very frequently as well. So, you know, it's not just the individual, the impact that's having on the individual, but the Kellen and I often talk about the ripple effect that grief has in the organization at the team level, at the organizational level. So I think it's, you know, there are a variety of manifestations, but, you know, big things to watch out for are you know, difficulty with concentration, fatigue, absenteeism, presenteeism, illness, sort of increasing illness, and, yeah, just difficulty concentrating. I think those those would be the major ones. I don't know, Mekel, if you wanna add anything to that.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Well, I love, Janet, thank you, that you brought up absenteeism and presenteeism because I think that sometimes there's an assumption that the worker, the employee will come in and sort of disconnect from work when what the research really shows is that we can have the opposite effect where the person's hyper focusing. They become hyper engaged. I can certainly relate to that. When my mom died, I went right back into academia and I hyper focused for three years almost as a way to avoid the pain of it all. And so that's also something we need to be mindful of so that, which can make it confusing for an employer because this person's coming to work, they're doing the work, they're excelling in their job. We still need to know that that may be, an unhealthy manifestation of grief in that space. So, yeah, thank you for mentioning that, Janet.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: And just to add on to that, I will say the risk of burnout. Right? They are at work is really high. I did the exact same thing after my mom died. I started university and I literally didn't stop for five years until my body quit on me. So I think that overworking and that over exertion, certainly puts workers at a higher risk of burnout. And I think that, you know, managers really need to be aware that that there's a variety of of impacts and to be mindful that that this could be one of them as well.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: So it can go both ways, you know, you can be struggling to think or you could be just blocking everything out and delaying that kind of grieving response, which is kind of things are put on hold, but as he's saying, they will catch up with you sooner or later. It's like you can't just keep it forever.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: It also reminded me of team engagement. And so, you know, a person disengaging from the team could be\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: a\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: manifestation or the employee may come back and there's a hyper control of the team. Right? Grief certainly is something that unsettles, each person in different ways, but it's very discombobulating and it makes us feel, dysregulated in many ways. And so it's not uncommon for people to grasp for what they can control or seemingly control, and that can manifest in the workplace as hypervigilance and micromanaging and, you know, over engagement in team and controlling behaviors. So I think it's important that employees really think about what was that employee's baseline and really sort of observe how are they showing up now post loss and having conversations naming that elephant so that the employee can really feel seen and supported in the work environment.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: I really like how you're both phrasing it, that there are just signs to look out for. It's obvious that grief is going to impact your work routine or your work performance in one way or another, and that you just have to notice it, which is kind of maybe counterintuitive to what most organizations will be doing, which would be maybe more of, you know, is this person okay? Oh, dear. They seem fine. They're working. So let's let them get on with it.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: They're productive. They're coming. They're fine. That's sort of the the blind assumption\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: of it\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: all, which is really dangerous.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: See how the culture of the organization can be fueling some of those defenses of, you know, trying to work, trying to keep up, trying to perform well, if that's what's expected of you, that you kind of pushed into this overdrive. You're pushed into the role of, you know, having to provide for your family, having to, you know, excel and not to face your grief. And which doesn't mean that these people are not struggling with grief, but they just don't have enough space to then process it. And if most of your day you're putting things on hold, and I've personally have got quite a few clients who who have been doing that for a very long time. And as you're saying, it reaches the point where it becomes unsustainable and, you know, all this like, it's like holding your breath all the time.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Yes. I'll share, I'll share a personal anecdote. When my mom died, I have mentioned I was in academia. I, over the next three years received the most reinforcement for how strong I was, for how I was really doing a good job of navigating loss. I received a promotion, got the most awards that I've ever received in that period of time in my career. And it was all reinforcing this idea that work wasn't the place to talk about loss. It was the work, the place to perform. And so I definitely wore that mask for several years until, like Janet, my body also said, nope. Not gonna happen anymore. It's time to stop this and, transition into really relaxing into things. But, yes, certainly the work environment can reinforce and exacerbate some of these unhealthy behaviors.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: And I think too when you have cultural broader cultural issues in an organization that don't prioritize wellness, that don't prioritize that sort of human centric connection that people forward management that we often talk about but have a hard time putting into practice. Grief is one of those examples where employee comes back and all of these cultural issues just become very evident to them. They may not have been as aware of them before, but if you're working in a difficult or toxic or dysfunctional work environment and you've experienced something really difficult and you come back into that environment, everything just becomes hyper focused on what those cultural issues are. They become quite magnified to the person quite quickly, I would say.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Which I think was one of the gifts of COVID from an employee perspective. Obviously, employers were scattered and reactive to the things going on, but I think it really elevated and shined a light on a lot of holes in organizations, which is a gift. I think when we can identify blind spots and areas of growth, it becomes an opportunity, which that's where I feel like Janet and I with BloomWell are perfectly positioned to be able to come in and say, wow, here's an opening. Let's walk through that door and help you discover other blind spots that you may not be thinking of so that you can promote wellness and organizational change as a whole.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. Because it's obviously very shortsighted plan of thinking that if you if you just ignore the grief, like, it's magically gonna disappear, and it's not gonna have a rip off effect on your employees and sustainability of employment because there's so many people who actually quit their jobs after loss after a while or they just cannot go back. Yes. You raise your hands, Miguel. Yes.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: Mhmm. We know that retention and turnover, when you're not supporting employees appropriately, they are going to leave. It may not be immediate, but they are going to leave and that can be contagious. We know that one person leaves, you know, other people may see how they've been treated when they come back and think this just isn't right. I don't wanna be part of an organization that can't support my colleague who's, you know, gone through so much and they're not gonna support me if I go through something similar. So, you know, that that can lead to turnover, loss of corporate knowledge, reputational Harris, like, there are a whole host of organizational risks that are associated with lack of grief informed policies and practices. So I think that's really where Mekel and I come in is we talk about all of these risks and make them quite real for people when we we do our our workshop and our training with organizations.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: That's so important, isn't it? And so so then, you know, kind of thinking about that kind of hyper focused, hyper performing people, and then on the other end, we've got those people who are struggling with emotionals, with the waves of grief. And, I think the example that comes to my mind is from another person who actually sent us a short message about her difficulties with grief. So she says that she has a lot of struggles with work, and she says, I will just be working along and have a memory come up out of the blue, and then I'm in tears and useless for the rest of the day. How can I get through those bounds of pain without leaving work for the day?\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: So I think it's just I think another example of, you know, what you were describing earlier about putting your grief on hold for majority of your day, suppressing your feelings, and not being not having the space to experience your pain. It's keeping those things separate, which is, you know, such a difficult task, impossible task because, you know, the more we're trying to suppress well, let let's not think about the pink elephant in the room. It's obviously gonna be more in your mind, but it's one of those things I think that people really struggle with if you're under so much pressure to perform and to get through the day.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Well, and I think I think part of the problem therein is that we dichotomize grief in work. Right? We think if I'm at work, I've got to do that only, suppress the grief. And when I get home, I can grieve. But again, our humanity is infused. This is reminding me of something that my mom used to always say, and that was that she's never met a person who can't walk and cry at the same time. That's brilliant. And it's true, right? We can walk and we can work and we can express and emote at the same time. So it's not that I have to put grief on hold at work. It's the work culture understanding that as grief arises, where can I find pockets in the workday and then return to work as I feel more grounded and anchored? But it's truly the withholding of the grief and the lack of expression that can really create a lot of internal and honestly, external challenges as an employee. And so it's better for that organization to say, look, let's do both and. Let's acknowledge the grief and think about how we can work in these eight hours. So the whole organization can thrive.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. So you're saying the pressure shouldn't be on the individual to magically find a way to grief, you know, outside of workplace, but to actually the change needs to happen within the organization as well as, obviously, some kind of permission on the individual level. So there's something about that. Yeah. Exactly. This is really important. Yeah.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: We have these very antiquated ideas of what professional looks like. Right? Is that we're not allowed to be emotional at work. It's also very it's a it's a very sort of patriarchal kind\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: of sense of\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: this idea, not never showing vulnerability, never showing emotionality in the work environment, and that's just so it it it's so old fashioned, and I think very unhelpful. And and and we've seen that through COVID where, you know, our personal professional lives really blended to the screen in so many ways. Well, this is an extension of that as well. And when you have well equipped, high functioning, you know, very emotionally intelligent managers, they can create space for a really productive employee to have a few moments where they're not feeling at their best and to say I'm really just not feeling at my best right now. That's okay. Take, you know, take some time right now to just fill your feelings, you're gonna feel better in a few minutes and then come back online. Like, there's no there's no reason why that's not feasible for anybody, when you have a manager that knows how to create space and be that employee's, feelings, really.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. Just takes away that pressure, doesn't it?\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: Absolutely.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Yeah. And I think it really has to come from the top down. So just imagine, you know, Janet, we can both relate to this. I'm sure Doctor. Monica, you can too. Coming back into that work environment and feeling the pressure to number one, come back and look the same, to not have people thinking that something's wrong with you. And then also knowing just the work demands. And so really the leader, the manager, right, the institutional infrastructure needs to communicate, yes, you're here and we expect you to come in expressing that you may be feeling tired and all the other manifestations that Janet named, which really takes the pressure off of the employee. But, again, I like as I mentioned, I think it's also an employee's responsibility to assert what they need. But I think if the organization can open the door, what a beautiful gift so that the employee is not having to navigate that on top of all the other logistical things that they're managing, as they grieve.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: %. And I would add to that that those conversations are so vital before that employee comes back to work. So you've been have an opportunity to open that door and extend that hand and say, help me understand where you're at and how I can be supportive and, you know, so they're not walking in blind to an environment where they're feeling already anxious about being there. And that's one of the things that we really talk about is is so important for that manager to have that conversation pre return to work so that supports can be put in place right on that first day, and we can dial down the the, anxiety and stress that person's already gonna be dealing. So I would I would counsel any manager to have that conversation in advance.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: I think what you're both referring to is just wanting to be held in mind by your employer, by your manager, preparing for your return rather than demanding the performance at a certain level, which is, you know, it's interesting that that's usually what's on your mind when you go back to work, you know, what am I supposed to do now?\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: That's right. I'll sort of frame this. This is a little bit of an aside, but, as a black woman, I this is coming to my mind for whatever reason. I think that when you're in, when you are the person who is oppressed, right, in this situation, depressed because of the grief, potentially oppressed, It's not the onus is not on you to be the educator. It's on the oppressor to take the time. Right. And I'm not saying that, you know, organizations are oppressive, even though some are, but it is on the organization's part to sort of educate themselves, to have a list of expectations. We expect you to come back tired. We expect you to come back mentally disorganized. We expect you to come back and have challenges as opposed to putting all the weight on the grieving person to have the handbook. Right. Because they're already managing so much mentally. So again, how that analogy came to my mind, I don't know. But I think that it is on the organization to take some of the weight off and do some of the heavy lifting upfront as Janet mentioned.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: Absolutely. I totally agree with that. And I think that this is so much of the work that needs to be done in organizations and in institutional spaces around education and grief literacy. Right? We challenge the these ideas and these myths and sort of cultural concepts that we have about grief and the griever so that organizations can better prepare themselves to address these issues head on. I think that it's so important that we dispel, we do a lot of myth busting, because we do hold a lot of these these cultural ideas about what grief should look like or what a grievers should do. And it's very unhelpful to grief as Nicole says. Right? It puts a lot of extra pressure on them.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Yeah. They just the labor. Right? The labor is really the labor should be parceled out. It's it's not only on the grieving person to do the the cognitive, the emotional, the physical, and the emotional labor associated with return to work. It's the employer's job as well.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. Exactly. But kind of thinking about that specifically about, you know, what are the kind of reasonable adjustments or accommodations that your employers kind of should be thinking about or maybe what you as an employee, someone who's returning to work, what can you request from your manager or, like, what what's reasonable? Because I think that's often something that people just simply don't know what they can ask for or, you know, in the practical level to make their life easier.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: There are lots of different adaptations and and and accommodations that, you know, employee can discuss with their Janet, like, having daily touch bases with the manager that understand what the priorities of work are and and to help sort of situate the person around those priorities, having more time to complete tasks if that's something that could be helpful to sort of reduce the pressure. I think having things put in writing can sometimes be very helpful because Yeah. When you're having these, you know, verbal interactions or this verbal download, a person may not be processing that information in real time. So having things in writing and then just also, talking with your manager about potentially reducing your workload, having some of that temporarily go to your team members as you start to ramp back up, and then gradually see how you do and reassume some of those tasks. So those are all very easily implementable solutions that managers have lots of discretion. They may not feel that they do, but they they do, but they can they can get creative. They can get, you know, be flexible. So that's what I would say, but, Nicole, you've probably got lots of other ideas as well.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: I was gonna say exactly that and to remember as an employer to do this in collaboration with the employee. Right? So Mhmm. We certainly, you know, with BloomWell, talk about not sort of, you know, forcing or mandating certain things. You may have an employee who wants to come back into the routine and the structure of the work environment. And so for an employer to say, oh, we've taken everything off your place, your plate can be actually more discombobulating. So to have conversations to say, here are some ideas. Let's talk about this. Let's talk about reduced workload. Let's talk about a, distribution of of work or so forth and to have those conversations. The other thing that I'll add is to not send the message, and this is sometimes subtly done, that we're gonna be outsourcing your pain. So I remember when my mom died that there was a lot of discomfort in the work environment from, you know, colleagues and and my employer. And so I had this feeling like I needed to sort of deal with this in secret. But I do recall sort of getting an email. Well, you know, the employee assistance program is available, EAP, which is a beautiful offering in workplaces. At the same time, that's not the only, strategy that can be used, which can help which can make the person who's grieving feel like, oh, my pain isn't welcome here. I've got to walk down the hall to the dark alley and sort of meet with the counselor outside of here, which can help which helps promote the idea of compartmentalization. And so what we're talking about is how can we infuse discussions of grief and loss to know that, yeah, EAP is available, and there are some ambassadors in this workplace. There are spaces for you to talk. There are colleagues for you to engage with and have a safe place to share. So again, both and not either or.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: Yeah. And just to add to Mikkel's point about EAP, it's so important. I think EAP really does play a role, but it doesn't and it, you know, counselors can give you tools or strategies for talking to your manager about, you know, reduced workload, but that doesn't, again, that puts the onus on the employee to do that. Right? To then go back and say, well, I was talking to the AP and, you know, maybe you could do this. But if it if a manager is well equipped and well trained, you know, they know that that that this is something that the, the employee can can talk through, and they know the employee's work environment. Right? That operating context that an EAP counselor doesn't necessarily know, and and and can't do that translation as easily as the manager could. So, again, you know, support from multiple sources is what's important when that person is coming back. Right? It's not just, like, one source of support. There's there's that that idea of wrapping around the person is very important, and and a manager is so so critical in that that wrap around piece. That's good.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: I mean, it sounds so in some ways when you think of it this way, I was like, well, it sounds very obvious that you should be just doing that. Right? But but, but it's not, but it's obviously not what's happening Monika daily basis. And it's just, it's this kind of parody sometimes when you walk into workplaces and, and you think about how much people are holding onto.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Yeah. Work environments, organizations are embedded in a culture, at least in the Western society, that grief is let's get as far away from that as possible. Like we are not a pain accepting sort of society. So it makes sense, right, that there are some struggles to sort of adopt this idea of infusing conversations about loss in the workplace. Again, that's where BloomWell comes in to really help these organizations understand why it's so valuable to do that because it's not just about that person at work. It's that person's gonna leave and they're gonna go back to a home. That home is in a community of other people. That community is part of larger society. So it really is this, ecological ripple effect that we need to be mindful of and what better place to offer support than the place that the person's at the majority of the day. And that's where\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: And the and the other consequence just talking about the ecological model, the other consequence is that employees talk. And if you wanna recruit talented, high performing employees and you've got a culture that sucks, employees are gonna leave and they're gonna tell other talented people, don't work there. This is what happened to me. And that's the reputational risk. Right? It's not it's about doing the right thing at the right time, but it's also building that organizational muscle that this you know, we have a culture where we take care of our own, and that's how we attract really talented people to work here. So it is it is there as we were saying, it is multilevel. Mhmm. And it's important that organizations think about all of these levels when we're designing policies and practices.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Exactly. But I think there's also something important about people returning to work that they are educated about those rights or expectations that it's not just all in them, and that kind of empowers to some extent, especially when you're in such a vulnerable position yourself when you're grieving and, you know, ability to think and process, as you mentioned, is so depleted. And in some cases, obviously, people really struggle to just you know, they're just surviving. They're not thriving, they're surviving. So it's much easier to take advantage of people when they're in that in such a vulnerable position. So I think it's even more important that we talk about, you know, what should you be expecting from an employer? What should you be asking for rather than feeling like you should just adjust and kind of fit in to the role that you have?\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: This reminds me of I'm sort of flashing back to, like, that week long orientation that most people have on new jobs, where you're sitting there looking at your phone, like, okay, how many more minutes of this before we can get on to the good stuff? But what what it could look like if an employer were to very much explicitly talk about potential scenarios. Right? We know that as the aging population continues to rise, every single person in that work environment is going to navigate some sort of loss. But even beyond physical death, right, we're all experiencing losses of dreams, hopes, expectations, losses all around us. And so what could it look like to have some intentional conversations from the beginning in orientation? Right? Just almost forecast. We know this is coming down the pipeline. Harris some resources available to you. Human resources can play a key role, in terms of helping an employee understand their rights and responsibilities. And, I also want to add, we hadn't mentioned this quite yet. In The United States, there's no federal mandate for bereavement leave. And employees need to know that, right? They may be thinking my husband died on Monika, not realizing that according to their policy, the expectation is that they're back to work on Wednesday or Thursday. Right. So those are things that I think are really important, conversations to have so that there's not a shock because it's devastating to get that forty eight hour phone call and realize that your employer is pressuring or you're perceiving that they're pressuring you to come back. And clearly, mentally, psycho, psycho psychologically, you're not ready to do that. Mhmm. So education upfront really matters.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And just just to Mekel house point, like understanding what is your company organization's bereavement lead, what supports are available to you even before a crisis hits. Mhmm. And again, this isn't just about the death of of a family member or friend. It could be a pet loss. It could be a fertility. Right, divorce, any of these, really significant late transitions that may require some personal time off. It's really important for employees to understand what are they entitled to before that happens to ask those questions, to understand are there flexibilities? Is there any managerial discretion in that? Are they flexible? Can I take them at different times? So, you know, these are important benefit questions to ask as you're being recruited and onboarded to a nation.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: I'll this reminded me, Janet. I was talking with a friend of mine. This is several years ago, and, she didn't realize that her company had bereavement leave. And so when her mom died, she immediately called the job and said she wouldn't be into work and, like, took sick leave. And it was unfortunate because her company did offer three days, seventy two hours of bereavement leave. But in her mind, she wasn't even aware of that. And so again, I don't know if that was an education misinterpretation, or a lack of communication they're in, but I think it's important that those things be spelled out. Even providing an employer at the beginning of their employment with a little, you know, sort of reference, you know, sheet to say, here are the the leaves. Here's your sickbay. Here's your paid time off So forth so that the employee is not shocked or reaching for resources that they don't need to access because the organization offers it. So\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: Absolutely. And it's so important for managers as well to really understand what their employees are entitled to because when that loss hits, you know you're in shock. Mhmm. You're having trouble processing information. You have trouble with recalls. Even if you knew that you had leave available, maybe you're just not able to access that in your in your memory. So it's really important for managers to show that leadership and to say, I've got you. Here's what you're entitled to. Here's here are the next steps. Here's how we can support you and be proactive in that. Because the last thing you want is to call your manager and say that, you know, someone close to you has died and they say, oh, I'm so sorry for your loss, and I'm not really sure I'll help you. Right? That's really unboxed, really unhelpful. So I I think being proactive in that and educating yourself as a manager about what your employees are entitled to before the crisis hits is so important. You can be proactive.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. And something no one obviously talks about because no one wants to talk about death. No. Yeah. No.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: But the truth is it has happened, and and that's it's happened. We're just not talking about it.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Exactly.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Proactivity is critical.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Pretending Pretending like it's everything's fine. Exactly. And I suppose that brings me to my last question, just more about the your colleagues and the environment that obviously it's not just your manager or your employer, you know, or someone who's in charge of what you do, but actually just just thinking about how you as a person who's working with someone who's been affected by significant loss, how they can support that person's return to work and just, you know, I remember someone talking about having, like, a a space once a month when people can meet and just talk about grief or loss and kind of just making connections. I thought I thought it's such a brilliant idea that people actually want to form their own kind of circles of support and just talking.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Yeah. It sort of leans into this idea of, psychological, and emotional safety within the workplace. I think one of the most important things that colleagues have to keep in mind is the relationship that they had with their colleague, who is grief, right? So not everyone needs to or has to show up in the same way. And so it's important if you are, supporting someone coming back to work that you sort of think about what was my existing relationship with this person?\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Am I, for example, the person who needs to bring a card? Do I need to sit in the room with them? Do I need to bake a cake? Or do I need to be the one who's helping offload some work? Right? We don't always have to show up in the same way, but it's important that we remember who we are. One of the worst things you can do is not show up in any way as we've alluded to before because that can really exacerbate that sense of isolation, that the grieving employee has. But, yeah, remembering who you are in relationship to the grieving employee and then acting accordingly is super important.\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: Yeah. And just to go back to your your point, Monica, about peer support, there are some organizations like Delta Airlines that have actually facilitated peer support groups for, people who are grieving and it's just such a wonderful thing to be able to give the employees the opportunity to support each other in that space. I think this is one of the best things that organizations can do and, you know, peer support is so powerful and something that we definitely encourage. And, you know, just creating these spaces for people to be able to come together and talk to one another and provide that that human connection can really make such a difference. So I think colleagues really can play a a huge role in that in that space as well. Again, I Mhmm. Wanna go back to this idea of having multiple sources of support for different for different reasons. Right? Which is one of those sources of support that can be so so powerful to people.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Absolutely. And it just kind of make me think also about the the time anniversaries of, like, significant times during the year. Whether that's holidays or, birthdays or, Christmas time. It just it's all those times when we are expecting to feel worse and, you know, what what how important that is for other people, but also for your employer to know and for you to communicate that as well that, you know, these are times when I'm, like, to struggle. Can I have, you know, some support with that? Because it's, you know, just crucial that we kind of address that, as you said before, preempting it before it's going to happen, knowing and kind of embracing yourself for it.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: Well, I think it is an astute manager and astute organization can plan out. Right? Holidays happen the same time of year every single year. And so let's put that on the calendar. Let's keep this employee top of mind and let's talk with them and say, look, Thanksgiving is coming up. This is a season where there's a lot of family narrative. I wanted to check-in with you to see, you know, what you're experiencing as you're approaching it is a beautiful offering to that person. They may say, I'm fine, great. They may say, gosh, I'm so glad you asked. This is actually a really difficult week. So prevention is the theme of the the the day, is talking about things in advance and feeling equipped to do that, knowing that the employee is struggling in their own right.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: So important. And I'm so glad we've touched on those different areas because I think what I'm hearing a lot today is just the the essence of kind of making things explicit, making things very open and transparent and who's responsible for what. You know, it's not your responsibility to teach your employer how they should support you, but also you you have some responsibility in, I suppose, communicating your needs and, you know, and making them available to people who are around you and and kind of asking for things, not necessarily asking for, you know, particular adjustments, but asking for support to some extent is also important that we just don't just kind of hide from those uncomfortable conversations. But as you're saying, you know, some places are just very toxic and some cultures are not as friendly as they should be. And there's something about the culture shift that needs to happen, I think,\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: what\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: you're describing that we'll allow this. Because if we don't put up with this as a society, and we will go for another place, another place to work in that is more accommodating and more understanding. And then eventually, the change will be spreading. And I think that's that's really important. I think that's really key that we also have, you know, courage to fight for our own rights. So thank you so much for both of you for being here and just sharing all the knowledge and skills. It's been really enlightening and stimulated a lot of thinking for me personally. So and I'm sure for many of our listeners. Wonderful. So we will we will share some of the links that you've been talking about to your organization and how to reach you in the show notes so people can reach out when they need to.\
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Dr. Mekel Harris: We do have Janet and I have a a really beautiful offering. It's a support strategies for managers guide, that you can access. We share that with you, doctor Monica, because we want managers to be equipped. And it's just a nice guide to help walk you through some of the things that we talked about and be proactive as you engage your employees.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: That is amazing. So we will definitely share that in the show notes and any just encouraging people to just kind of read it, to have certain expectations, but maybe also sharing it with your Janet, you know, in the workplace and just kind of educating them about it would be really good starting point. Photos. Okay. So thank you so much both of\
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Janet Gwilliam-Wright: you. Thank you. Thank you.\
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Dr Monika Wieliczko: Thank you for joining us. I hope you found it useful. Connect with me on Facebook and Instagram under Guide to Afterlife for more wreath tips and resources. Visit guidetoafterlife.com to send me your questions and to take part in the Grief MOT, your free first aid program for grief. See you next Tuesday for yet another stimulating conversation.\
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Season 2, Ep 8. How to Navigate Work After Loss: What Every Widow Should Know. A Conversation with Dr Mekel Harris and Janet Gwilliam-Wright.

The Grief MOT

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