Season 2, Ep 9. The Widow's Guide to Dead Bastards, a memoir by Jessica Waite

Season #2 March 18, 2025

In this powerful episode of A Guide to Afterlife, Dr. Monika Wieliczko welcomes author Jessica Waite to discuss her memoir "The Widow's Guide to Dead Bastards." Jessica shares her journey of discovering her late husband's secrets after his sudden death and how she navigated the complex emotions of grief, anger, and healing.

This episode offers valuable insights for young widows dealing with complicated grief and the process of reclaiming one's life after loss.

Main Discussion Points:

- Jessica's story of loss and discovery

- The impact of uncovering secrets after a partner's death Navigating complicated grief and anger

- The importance of truth in the healing process

- The transformative power of grief and creative expression Rebuilding identity and finding hope after betrayal

Resources:

Ready to move from surviving to thriving after loss? Visit guidetoafterlife.com to access our free Grief MOT program - your first-aid kit for grief.

Don't forget to subscribe to A Guide to After Life podcast list to be notified of more conversations about navigating grief: https://www.guidetoafterlife.com/podcast-signup

- Book a free 15-consultation with me to discuss the results of your Grief MOT

- Find out about Grief Group Therapy that I offer

- Unsure whether to see a psychologist, psychotherapist or counsellor or grief coach for grief support? Read this blog post to find out more.

Guest Bio: Jessica Waite is the author of "The Widow's Guide to Dead Bastards." She lives in Canada and has an 18-year-old son. Jessica's memoir details her journey of grief, anger, and healing after discovering her late husband's secrets following his sudden death. Key Quotes: [00:34:37] Jessica Waite: "So, essentially, what it felt like after I found out these secrets was that my whole life had been a lie. And that if he was hiding so much and keeping such big secrets from me and lying to me, like, every single day, then how could I trust anything that he ever said and that everything must, like, have been a complete lie." [00:47:59] Jessica Waite: "He said if you don't mourn, you will grieve for the rest of your life and it's like being dead while you're still alive. And I was like, exactly. And I could see like I know people who have had that experience and I didn't want that for myself."

You can connect with Jessica through her website: https://www.jessicawaite.work/ and Instagram.

Your Host’s BIO:

Dr Monika Wieliczko, Chartered Clinical Psychologist D.Clin.Psych, MSc, MA

Psychologist by profession, and a widow, in private.

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Episode Transcript

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\f0\fs24 \cf0 Full Transcript\
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[00:00:07] Podcast Introduction\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Welcome to Guide to Afterlife, your go to podcast for young widows. I'm your host, doctor Monica Velichko, a psychologist sudden your fellow widow. Each episode brings you insights from world renowned grief experts and authors discussing complex grief issues and their personal experiences of loss. My aim is to challenge the way you think, empower you to face your feelings and help you develop resilient ways to grief. Move beyond surviving each day and visit after to take part in the Grief MOT, your first aid program for grief.\
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[00:01:08] Welcome Jessica Waite\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: In today's episode, my guest is Jessica Waite, an author of a very interesting and stimulating memoir, The Widow's Guide to Dead Bastards. And I would like to welcome Jessica on the podcast.\
Jessica Waite: Hi. Thank you so much for inviting me to be on today. I'm excited to be here.\
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[00:02:56] Jessica's Background\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Oh, it's so lovely to have you here, Jessica. And, you know, I think your title brings up just the myriad of reactions, feelings. I'm just thinking about what we represent. And I think having you Monika podcast, how this idea of having this conversation came out in the first place was when I was listening to you presenting on another podcast, just hearing this very complicated story, which I think we don't hear enough about. And that's why I've decided to reach out to you and invite you on the podcast because I think we need to hear a bit more about relationships, marriages that actually are not as easy as maybe society wants it to view it. And and having your kind of perspective would be invaluable for those of our listeners who perhaps also can relate to some of the complications that arise in grief, especially when the person who died turns out to be different to what we imagine them to be, or the image we had of them before they died changes as something starts to crop up and, you know, we find out certain things about them, which is, I think, inevitably part of every kind of conversation I've had with widows that, you know, there are certain things we start to understand retrospectively about relationships, which are often, you know, complicated. So I would really want to kind of start with thinking a little bit about your book, but also, you know, your story of life, your story of loss, of Sean, and, you know, and see Waite it takes us. But if you could maybe start by telling us a little bit about yourself.\
Jessica Waite: Okay. Sure. Well, I'll I'll talk mostly about my stories or how how I am right now. So I live in Canada. I have a son who just turned 18.\
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[00:03:34] Discovering Secrets\
Jessica Waite: He was nine when his dad died. So I wrote a book that took about seven years to write in another year or so to come out that just came out this summer. And as you alluded, the title is The Widow's Guide to Dead Bastards, which is, you know, I I think that's, like, a conversation in and of itself about how, like, people react when they see this title. I think they laugh nervously, lean in a little bit, and are curious about, like, what are we encountering here. And so Yeah. For for me, I was married for seventeen years, together for twenty years Waite my partner Sean, who I deeply loved and respected and admired when he was alive, but he died suddenly. And then the day after his funeral, I started to find out that he was keeping secrets from me. And so I think that's where the title sort of like, we're seeing someone who is not just a typical crying bereaved person, but someone who's angry, and contending with something that's really hard. Yeah. And so this is a story that starts with someone angry and then the trajectory goes from there.\
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[00:05:24] Coping with the Aftermath\
Jessica Waite: And really Waite it's asking I think the question at the heart of this story is, like, can relationships heal beyond the veil of death? And what do you do when you someone you had a complicated relationship and things were left unsaid and the person is gone from your life somehow whether I think it could be in in other cases, like, even if someone left you or the relationship just didn't close out in a way that you wanted or the person died, I think there's a lot of people who have had that sort of situation where there's just so much unsaid.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. And it kind of as I said earlier, I think it breaks down this illusion of a perfect marital or perfect grief equally, you know, as if there was such a thing as a perfect grief.\
Jessica Waite: Which I think probably only exists in our imagination, but there was a for me, you know, I started out for a week of just devastating sadness, which is kind of the more, like, overtly acceptable way way of Traditional. Yes. Yes. And what Waite what people expect of you. And then I found the secrets out, which included things like infidelity and financial secrets, hidden debt, and some addictive behaviors with pornography and hiding drug use, that sort of thing. And so there there was just so many things that I was just Memories. Yeah. That made me question, like, who was this person and how could I not have known these things were going on. Yeah. In because I I felt like we were very close and had a good not a perfect marriage.\
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[00:07:47] Reactions to the Truth\
Jessica Waite: I knew that there were some things wrong, but also yeah. I anyway, Waite, yeah. It's it's complicated. Waite. And so then there was the desire to sort of preserve his reputation both for, like, our friend's family and for our son. Like I said, he was nine at the time. And so just having to, like, consider how can I not let the things that are hurting me so much hurt these other people? Like, my desire at first was really to protect them from the knowledge of it. Yeah. And keep the good parts of his memories alive. Yeah.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Ex exactly. So I can see that conflict emerging, and and you write so beautifully in your book about that. Just on one hand, wanting saying to protect your son, to protect your family from your anger, and it was kind of it was rage. I mean, when you\
Jessica Waite: Waite. Yes.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: The pages, it was you were absolutely raging with anger and, you know, and and I remember this scene when you're kind of throwing your wedding ring across the room and it's kind of like I I divorce you, I think. So this is that kind of scene that is so beautifully kind of presenting. It's just like, I can't even make you accountable. I really enjoy that bit because it kind of shows the frustration and helplessness in you. You can't even, you know, punish him in any way.\
Jessica Waite: Yes. There's no no\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: believe would have happened\
Jessica Waite: if\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: someone's alive.\
Jessica Waite: It's all the it felt like all the consequences. Like, all the earthly consequences were on me for a mess that I didn't really feel like I made, but yet I had, you know, it's like so it was just another level to sort of dig out from. And then I think as you were alluding to this idea of, like, a perfect love or perfect marriage or perfect Mhmm. Way to grieve without knowing I had any of those things, I think I was really building those up too. Like, I felt like now because I know this, I'm cheated out of what would have been my experience if if things had been as they seemed on the surface where I would have been able to receive condolences and consolation from people who were coming over to sit with me or bring, you know, a casserole, that sort of thing. Yeah. But when they would come, I would I I felt like I had to perform some kind of right? And so which was exhausting to pretend that I was some other Waite. And so I like, they as soon as they kind of get in the door and I'd thank them, I'd sort of want them to leave because it Waite so so tiring to, like, put on this other kind of face somehow. And I I felt like a liar myself, if that makes sense.\
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[00:09:18] Life Before Sean's Death\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Because as you said, because the perception, you know, the assumption people hold about your grief, and I can completely relate to a lot of that myself, you know, that people expect you to be sad, people expect you to be struggling in a way that is traditionally perceived as a mourning kind of bereavement traditionally is seen as, you know, a stage of your grief where we are really struggling to function, that we are obviously upset that we loss them. And there isn't room for those more complicated feelings. And actually, as if any marriage would be that kind of experience, you know, that you just loss someone. But how about if you feel relieved? Like in my\
Jessica Waite: husband, my\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: husband died, you know, after a long illness, after complicated marriage. There was a part of me that felt relieved, you know,\
Jessica Waite: that Yes.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: I wasn't stuck in that kind of place for various reasons. Obviously, I missed him terribly, but, you know, where's that space for other side of life?\
Jessica Waite: Yes. Where and where people might look askance if you were having a good day. Do you know what I mean? Where it's, like, just, like, hot. And I think that's really common too and and very hard to talk about. So yeah.\
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[00:11:25] Mental Health Struggles\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: So important. But I wanted to still sort of ask you about what the life was like with Sean before he died. You know, what what what was the relate what what was your kind of image of the relationship before it kind of shattered, obviously, by the news we found out?\
Jessica Waite: So it's a bit complicated because it's, you know, it's a long life and a lot of but Waite but we like, in aggregate, I feel like we had a very good marital team and we we built an amazing life together. But over the last few years before Sean died, we had taken a term overseas. So we had been living in Singapore for three years, and then we moved back to Calgary. And then Sean lost that job and was found another job, which he was commuting between Calgary and Denver, Colorado. So, like, not even in the same country. So Wow. So life was in those last couple years, Monika, very stressful, hectic. There was a lot going on and and so juggling so much that we weren't able to have the same kinds of, like, depth of conversations as what we used. Like, you you it used to be, you know, when if things were, like, not going well or that sort of thing, we could talk it out. Like, we seem to always be able to to solve our problems or whether some kind of storms. But in the last the last year of Sean's life, things were, like, there was way too much external pressure, and then he seemed to not be doing well with his mental health. And so the way that I characterize it now, like, putting together the things that I found and piecing that with how he was sort of acting and behaving, I think that he was probably fully symptomatic with bipolar disorder. And so there was a an addressed mental health component too, which was hard to live with. So when you talk about, you know, the relief, he was having mood swings and that sort of thing. And so I didn't miss those things after he died. It was a relief to not have to have that sort of I don't know. Just where where the whole space is very much affected by somebody's mood, and you're having to tiptoe around certain things. So, yeah, that I think that's a hard way to live.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: And I think that is in itself, you know, an interesting topic to explore because as you're saying, you know, it's not like sudden you you didn't know anything that was going on in his life or, like, you know, obviously, the mental health was there. And it was the the lack of awareness of how perhaps troubled he was or what was going on. And and him is not to put everything on, you know, mental health or mental illness because I don't think that everything could just be explained by that. And I'm sure you've got something to say about that. But, but there's some kind of some confidence that we tend to either, you know, put up with or maybe just turn a blind eye on or think, well, it's been so loss, you kind of learn to be with someone and accept the way they are.\
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[00:13:06] Unexpected Loss\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. I think so too. And I think that there's you know, it's interesting because when when something's happening in the day to day, like, just Waite any kind of relationship, you sort of pick your battles. Right? And so so there's, I think you said, like, ways that we learn to, like, navigate with a person, and then there are times when things seem worth having a conversation around and times when they don't. And so, yeah, it's like we don't really realize the way that we're sort of growing around a situation, until it becomes untenable. And in my case, it was becoming untenable. So there was definitely a conversation that was going to happen if Sean had lived. Like, I was like, when he's off for Christmas, we're gonna, you know, like, sit down and really talk about how things are going right now. Right. But he died in November, and so he didn't make it to to Christmas. And it was a heart attack that he died from.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: And it was very sudden.\
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[00:15:11] Seeking Help and Understanding\
Jessica Waite: Very sudden. And he was on his way home from a business trip, so he died while he was in The US just about to fly back home to Calgary. So there were a lot of just bureaucratic and logistical complications about being away from home and away from your home country. And then a lot of questions about, well, what caused the heart attack because he had seemed to be in full health, and and then I never even was ever able to talk to the doctor, to find out. Right. Yeah. It was so there was a lot of sort of loss and then when I started to find out the secrets, I was like, well, was there some kind of, like, illicit drug use or some kind of foul play? Like, it was just like, there was just so so many things that were strange and ambiguous about it. Waite it did for me was sort of turned on my, like, my inner Nancy Drew. Like, I used to read all those, like, mystery books and so so I had a whole bunch of mysteries to solve. And and that's where I kind of found in some ways, like, my agency and curiosity again, because I'm like, I'm going to get to the bottom of this. And then as I was finding things out and the pieces sort of started stacking up and making more sense and and so this is where when things are happening in the moment, you can describe, oh, someone's tired, they're hungry, they're you know, like, what they just made a snappy remark because whatever. But when you see the picture more fully in a different way with the pieces that were being hidden from you, then it's much easier to sort of ascribe it to just something that that makes a lot more sense. And so in that case, I realized now that, you know, there's the idea that what we don't know doesn't hurt us, but what I didn't know was hurting me. And then I realized and and why I decided to write all of this into a book in some ways is because finding out the truth helped me. It helped me heal. It helped me make sense of my life, and I think that the same would be true for other people. And so eventually, you know, I did talk to the family about it. I did talk to our sudden. Not all at once, but just over time as he was growing up to let him know other parts of his life that I was trying to shelter him from when he was younger.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. And I think that is just so rich Waite you just said about needing to know the truth. Because without the truth, I mean, we can lie to ourselves and we can try to, you know, keep things out of our minds to some extent, but there's a huge cost that comes with it, isn't it? And sometimes that cost is greater than the benefits of it, especially when that person is gone and, you know, you can't move forward until you've got some kind of resolution within yourself, but also in the relationship with that person. I often talk about it as the grief is another form of relationship that we relate to our grief.\
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[00:17:12] Support Systems\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: We relate to the person who died, even though they're not here, but they obviously are still alive in their minds. And if you don't reach that kind of state of understanding of what actually happened, which you said that in some ways writing and talking, exploring, finding out, putting those pieces together seemed like the way for you to process all of that. And I know you also mentioned seeing a therapist or counselor in relation to that. It was really interesting because you actually say in a book that one of the first thing you did, you booked a session with a therapist three hours later after you found out the first piece. Yeah.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. This is, like, in the middle of the night. Like, really? Like, it's, like, three or four in the morning because I find the things out just before I go to bed, then I can't sleep. And then I yeah. So I booked, like, an emergency. So that was the first thing\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah.\
Jessica Waite: That I did was to try to find someone to at least help me hold what I was finding out and maybe help me find the next step because I didn't feel like I could tell a single person, and it felt too big. Like, I just realized I wouldn't yeah. I couldn't hold all of that together. Yeah. And so bless that. Bless her online booking system for and being able to see me, like Immediately.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. Because as you said, you know, if you if there was no space in your family to talk to anyone about it I mean, also, people are involved in, you know, having a different form of a relationship with the person who died. So it's very complicated to expect them, first of all, to respond in a way that is containing and understanding, you know, and kind of caring towards you when you're going through this, when they have their own kind of difficulties with understanding and processing that. So I can see how having that kind of someone external kind of seeing you and obviously professional who is there to help you digest all of that that's coming out, especially when you were describing this initial shock of it, you know, like, it's almost like I could feel the trembling emotions in you and erupting like a volcano. It was yeah.\
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[00:18:57] Family Reactions\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: It's it must have been quite a quite a shock.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. It was absolutely devastating. And I like what you're saying too, like just kind of coming to the understanding that, you know, within the family, we're all wounded by this loss. Right? And so it's sort of like to have to be able to step outside of, like, that unit to someone who is resourced, who is trained, who's professional, and that can, like, let that person help instead of someone who's, you know, just trying to treat their own pain and suffering. And it's so confusing when you're trying to rebuild after a loss. And so so I think that that's part of the I think what do they call it? Secondary loss, like, when friendships and family relationships start to break off or suffer. I I can understand, like, in a lot of ways why that happens because people are trying to lean on each other, but we can't be there and always in the ways that we could if if we weren't also hurt.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: And we are also at different stages of our grief, and the relationship is different, and our capacity to deal with the loss is different. And when we're ready to hear certain things. And, yeah, it's I mean, I I still have friends and family members who haven't really been able to accept the loss of my late husband, so it is obviously not my role to force that upon anyone, but at the same time, yes, obviously it does affect you as a grieving widow, you know, how do you then deal with it if there are certain people you can talk to who will get it, but there might be others who don't. And that's always a very complicated journey, and especially when you've got such a massive secret hiding that, you know, he was probably, you know, hiding presumably for a longer period of time.\
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[00:20:26] Navigating Loss and Healing\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. Sean was hiding it from everyone. So it's not I didn't have Yeah. Luckily, the situation where everybody else knew except for me because that must be, like, incredibly humiliating and awful and just, like, make you feel so Luckily, I didn't have that. But it's still yeah. It's interesting because loyalties are tested in a Waite, and it's I I didn't think of it in those terms about, like like, what you expect like, who you expect will be there for you and who isn't and and then how how that all goes down and how disappointing that can be.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. And just add another layer.\
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[00:23:01] Effects of Grief on the Brain\
Jessica Waite: But for the most part, just to say about my family for like, most people were very supportive, and I was really lucky in that way. I've seen but I've seen in other cases where where people aren't. I think this is probably common, but one of the things I remember about that acute time was that the line between what would make me feel better and what would make me feel worse was so thin. And every time you talk to someone, even just to say, could you come by or it's so fraught, like, because if they say no and and don't come or they say yes, but then for some reason they can't make it, like or they come and then that turns out not to be helpful at all. It's so like, everything just seems so heightened. And I I remember, like, every interaction felt scary in a way because I didn't know if it would make me feel better or worse. And I don't know if that was specific to me or if that's something that you felt or hear from other people.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. I definitely can relate to it myself. You just don't know what's gonna help you. I mean, full stop. You you're so flooded by stress hormones and, you know, it's the trauma response in your body that makes it absolutely impossible to reason. Like, you just your brain is not functioning the normal way. So, you know, I definitely felt like I had some kind of brain injury for at least a year, you know, just reasoning, you know, or even kind of remembering things, making decisions, even the simple thing as making a meal sometimes felt impossible. And when you're trying to deal with something so overwhelming as, you know, processing the loss and, you know, the conflicting informations that coming out. I mean, it's a perfect storm.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. So interesting that you said the brain injury component because I had a friend who, a few months before Sean died, one of my best friends was hit by a bus and very seriously injured and had a broken neck, like a cervical spine injury. She had a halo brace on, but anyway, and she was partially paralyzed. And one of the things that, like, throughout as after Sean died and I was recovering from that, she was coming to the city where I live for, like, surgery and follow ups and that sort of thing. And I noticed that our rate of healing was similar. And it it made me think about that there probably is like a a nervous system injury or a brain injury. Like yeah. Yeah. And so the length of time that if someone has a broken neck, you expect that healing to take a long time. Right? But with the grief, people think, okay.\
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[00:25:49] Finding Patience in Healing\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Like Two weeks.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. Two weeks, six weeks. Okay. Move on. You know? But by the time the season changes, like, I should certainly hope that you'll be back at your life, like, that sort of thing. But it's like, no. I think it takes a lot longer than that to reform around the new reality. And as I as I started to understand how much patience is actually required, like Waite ourselves, it allowed me to be a lot more, like gentle with myself. And something that I wish I could have known earlier was that when it came to our son, that other people would step in to be his teachers, his mentor, you know, like that that he I couldn't replace his dad by being the mom and the dad at the same time. Like, I basically felt like I had doubled where I had to now be the mom and the dad and do all the things that Sean would have done and and I just couldn't do it because, again, I was injured myself. Right? And so Yeah. Yeah. But I really wanted that. I really didn't want there to be that void and nothing for my son, and I didn't want him to be permanently injured or harmed. And so so I had I put, like, just an insane amount of pressure on myself to fill in that gap. And so if I could have been more gentle with myself and not had those expectations Mhmm. I think that would have been a lot kinder in the long run for me.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. I mean actually we have a whole episode on Grieving Brain in season one of the podcast where I'm actually talking to a neuropsychologist about the impact of grief on the brain sudden just the kind of, as you're saying, the expectations that are completely unrealistic that made a lot of sense for me when I remember that conversation, especially around, you know, this kind of feedback loop that gets created in our mind where we put so much pressure and obviously we get more anxious about not being able to meet those expectations. And that obviously makes you kind of sense of self esteem or, you know, or even, you know, belief in yourself that you can manage something, just being shattered. And it's much harder because then you start avoiding certain things, so you feel really bad about yourself and that you're failing as a mother or as a friend, you know, that you should be able to do these things. Why can't I just remember? I remember kind of trying to do something on my laptop just after I was coming back to work after a long break. I think it was about a year and trying to find some files on the system on my, in my, folders on my, laptop. And, and I just couldn't remember how to do it. I just didn't know how to move from one place to another, how to edit things. It would take me forever.\
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[00:28:15] Dealing with Overwhelming Discoveries\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: And that sense of tremendous loss of, you know, I've lost my capacity to be a professional person, to be a psychologist, you know, all of these things were in question. Yes, I think that there's so much there and obviously your ability to parent, your ability to be emotionally tuned in, and you know all of these things are compromised.\
Jessica Waite: Well, and then that feeling of fear of, like, supporting yourself. Right? Like, if I'm, like, if I can't be professional, you know, I mean, I'm, like, I go out and I'm wearing two different shoes. Right? That don't match one another. Like, it's like, it really, yeah, makes you put a lot of fear into, like, what is my future gonna hold if this is how it's gonna be. And so, yeah, I'll have to go back and listen to that episode because I'm really fascinated by the brain science of grief. And I think if we understood that better and to know, like, you'll recover from this. Like, this is a temporary situation. You don't need to add all that anxiety and fear and doubt onto yourself and just understand\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah.\
Jessica Waite: That the expectation that you could do it is just maybe a little bit unrealistic right now. Yeah.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Completely. Because no one talks about it. No one tells you that, you know, grief resembles brain injury. And as you're saying, you know, it just is incredibly hard to come back to yourself because there's complete disorganization in your brain and communications with different parts of the brain is completely discombobulated. Waite, yes, I mean, I I definitely feel now that most of my capacity to think I think is back. I would hope so. But it takes a long time.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. Yeah. And also do I. So let's just, like, land that for everyone. It's like, coming back. It's coming back. And I also don't think it's realistic to not wish for it to go faster. Like, it's like, you know, like, I couldn't like, all I wanted was for this to be in the rear view mirror and just to, like, get back to, like, some sort of sense of normalcy and stability and and all of that. And and, you know, I guess that's true with anything. It's like, don't wish your time away in some ways, but it's very hard to not when it when it feels so Absolutely. But but I but not but putting that pressure on myself again, for it to be faster sudden, like, it didn't help anything. So I guess if I could have maybe noticed I was doing it and eased off eased off the gas pedal, that would have been a good\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: time to do that. You what you were describing is just this impossible situation of having to be a good mother, to look after your son, to stop his, you know, the wish to stop his suffering, the impact of losing his father, and on the other hand, just kind of having to process an impossible situation of, you know, because when you talk about things you were finding out, just graphics of, you know, watching the I've got this image of those vaginas on the screen that you talk about at the beginning of the book, and I was just like my first reaction was the the absolute shock of it. The things you had to deal with when you were completely at the most vulnerable point already.\
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[00:32:12] Processing through Music\
Jessica Waite: Yes. Yes. And so that that that was a strange thing that happened, like, strange, like, simulation of having so the loss of the brain through then being in my, like, what is happening? What is my life? And and going into this, like, immersive situation where my husband had basically been, like, cataloging and collecting and hoarding pornography since the beginning of the Internet and me discovering this just enormous cache of files and trying to figure out what that was. And so I'm taking my grief out of the brain, immersing myself in a world of pornography and Yeah. Just and then and then what that was doing, like, as I was rewiring, like, that that I was having, like, flash images of, like, people naked. Like it like a, you know, just like a random person and so that's another thing that I'm like, oh. Like, I'm in a very malleable state right now and whatever I put in front of myself is, you know\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Comes in.\
Jessica Waite: Getting, like, encoded into whatever I'm becoming. And so I decided to, you know, just Waite mysteries were left in the in the cache of pornography, I'm like, I'm letting those go because I need to put something in front of my eyes that is gonna help me stand on my own two feet. That's not gonna it just, like Yeah. Put me in another kind of weird head space and not not go around. But but, anyway, it's that was an interesting it's just another interesting piece of data about how important it is, I guess. I think probably it would have been better to if I was, like, I would for a walk in nature or listening to beautiful music. And and music was a real that was one of the things that really helped me when I was feeling alone was I made a playlist of different songs that kind of captured every sort of emotion. And when I would walk my dogs every single day, I would listen to this music. And and some of the songs were really, like, angry and vengeful, and some of them were really hopeful, and some of them were, like, you know, like, just a a love song that was, like, you're gonna have love in your life again because that's something that I really Waite. Mhmm. Trust and feel loss and feel, like, have a a partnership again. So Yeah. Yeah.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: But are you also describing that you were making room as you were going along on your grief journey for all those different emotions emerging, and the music obviously has a fascinating capacity to help us connect with different parts of ourselves for, you know, eliciting strong emotions. And, you know, I remember very well myself, like, having the playlist, I would listen. I think I remember on Spotify at the end of the year after my late husband died having the stats, and I think on average, I think I listened to eight hours of music on Spotify. It was one playlist that was, like, maybe ten hours long or twelve hours long, but I listened to it on repeat in different order. But it was just kind of full of, you know, nostalgic grief and also a lot of kind of uplifting music. So depending on what you needed, that kind of music kind of elicited the reaction that you needed to connect with internally. So I can see how you naturally were just kind of jumping into a place that was healing for you.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. Yeah. I'm and I'm glad you did too, and I hope yeah. If anyone hasn't it didn't occur to them to do that. I guess maybe not everyone responds to music in the same Waite, but but I do feel like like music was a thing where I was talking about how it was high stakes dealing with other people in terms of, like, maybe this will make me feel better, but sometimes it would make me feel much worse.\
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[00:34:39] Questioning the Relationship\
Jessica Waite: With music, I mean, you should skip to the next song. If this song's, like, not for you right now, just go to the next one and find it. There's something\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: And the number of times, yeah, you go through the same song. For me, it was just like I needed to go through this feeling again and again and again and again. Cause that's\
Jessica Waite: how you\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: process emotions. You don't just acknowledge them once and you you hope for the best, you know, it's a constant process of reframing and thinking, remembering something, working through that. So it must have been, I can imagine for you as well, you know, that kind of constant process of jumping from one feeling to another in that kind of feeling love and affection and missing him, but at the same time, really hating him and, you know, talk a lot actually in the book about, you know, questioning your whole marriage and what it was. You know? I wonder whether you could say a bit more about that, how that kind of evolved, you know, your perception of him, you know, because you you had to do a tremendous amount of work Mhmm. On yourself just to get to get to where you are now\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. Yeah.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Kind of thinking about it.\
Jessica Waite: So, essentially, what it felt like after I found out these secrets was that my whole life had been a lie. And that if he was hiding so much and keeping such big secrets from me and lying to me, like, every single day, then how could I trust anything that he ever said and that everything must, like, have been a complete lie. And so it was just, like, devastating to to imagine that you can't believe a single thing that happened in the last twenty years. And so the work that I did kind of well, and then I guess just it I can't really say all of, like, the past things without saying that things started happening around my home that didn't used to happen. And so, like, my light bulbs, like, were burning out, like, super crazy. The television and stereo were turning on by themselves. I was seeing animals in strange places that aren't usually there. And and and so thing it kind of opened a question in my mind of, like, what is happening now? And is this is there something after death? And is Sean reaching back to me? And if he is, he can go to hell, right, because I'm I'm so mad at him and so but it it made me because I then realized I had been being gaslit, it made me, like, then doubt, like, whatever was happening in my reality. And and so so I had to I had to do a lot of, like, very rigorous sense making to try to figure out what was happening, what I could trust, and what it all meant. And so it took a long time to kind of parse the things out, and I got support in lots of different ways. But in a nutshell, that's I guess that's the story that I'm telling in the book is, like, how do you go from a place of being rageful, angry, devastated, and completely isolated and mistrusting of everything to get to a point where you can, like, feel like you have a stable place to stand, have a sense of peace and hope in your heart, like that that sort of thing, and then be able to, like, I'm not saying this in a prescriptive way because I don't know if this would be true for everyone in every kind of situation.\
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[00:36:08] Personal Identity After Loss\
Jessica Waite: But the idea that everything that Sean ever said was a lie, it can't be true.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Like, do you\
Jessica Waite: know what I mean? It's like like, they can't be true that's, like, 100% of what someone did was, like, anything. That a % true, % lies anything. And so so I think I was able to, at some level, reclaim some of whatever was true about my life and sort sort of The relationship. Yes. Yeah.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: And you're you're as a person because I think when we are married to someone for so many years, our sense of identity is hugely defined by the relationship. So it's not just the the fact that you were questioning him or the relationship, but presumably also you as a person to some extent, even though it's obviously illogical from the point of view of, you know, obviously, that's not your fault that he was like that. But it taps into something very personal in us, doesn't it? Like, when you suddenly find out.\
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[00:37:16] Seeing Life Through New Lenses\
Jessica Waite: Definitely. Because when you share a lie a life and a long term relationship with someone, who you become is partly informed by who you're with. Right? So it's like if you would have been with someone else, you'd become a different person. And so so there is that whole thing of like, well, who am I and then yeah, and then who am I going to be next? So\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. That's\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. And\
Jessica Waite: I guess that that's sort of the identity thing that happens with everyone after any kind of loss. But I I think it's quite different with a marital or, like, a long term, like, intimate relationship.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: And, you know, Mindful, it's been you said it was it's been nine years since yes. Yes. Since he died that you kind of reached the point when you were able to publish the book and talk about it in this kind of more open way, which I think in itself it must be quite liberating because I was thinking there's always some kind of whether it's more conscious or more unconscious reason behind why we want to share our stories. And there might be multitude of different reasons, but I think for you I can imagine, and I'm obviously might be wrong, but when I was reading the book I was kind of thinking about the heaviness of this kind of experience of having to hold it all inside of you. And, you know, when you look at the the cover of the book, which I've got with me, it's like you kind of imagine you holding this massive, you know, grape from falling back and crushing you and just kind of this and the discrepancies between the size of that woman's body and this massive block, you know, and having to push it from collapsing.\
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[00:39:54] Writing as Healing\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: I think it elicits very strong reaction in me, this kind of visceral reaction of what the obviously it's my association, so you might feel very differently about it. But, you know, it was just so kind of striking for me. And it makes a lot of sense of why you might have had this need and it took, you know, this many years to write about it, to process it, to have a storyline, to kind of push it outward to the world and say, well, this is me. This is what I've experienced.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. And I love the so the cover has like, it's a giant tombstone and then a woman, like, as a much smaller woman who's maybe, like, 10% of the size of this giant block, but she's holding it up. And so I felt like it represented, like, you know, the weight of enduring or, like, the strength that it takes when this, like, crushing weight is about to Yeah. Crushing. And you're just holding holding on. Yeah. And and so I felt like someone who's been through this kind of situation, if they saw that, they could relate to, like, what kind of fortitude it takes to hold your world together. But then my sister-in-law, Sean's sister, saw the cover in a totally different way where she was actually pushing it back to upright because it's at an angle as it's and so and so I was like, oh, you can see it that way too where it's like something did kind of crush me, and now I'm, like, setting it back up and and getting ready to move forward. And and so I love it for that sort of, like, the liminality.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: But both might be true. You know?\
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[00:41:54] Surrendering Anger\
Jessica Waite: Yes. Yes. Exactly. And then it's like, isn't that life kind of, like, something knocks you off balance, you get back up sudden find find your way again, and we go forward with that. So yeah. And then you had asked about, like, what it's like to put such a vulnerable story into the world, and it's been out for a few months. And it has really been, again, every kind of emotion. I should make my playlist for for\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: for sure.\
Jessica Waite: For sure. It was surprisingly like like, something happened that my publisher has never seen, which was that it hit a best seller list before it went on sale. So just because of the way like, people pre ordered it and because I'm not famous, they'll put a strict on sale date for very famous people. Like, so, like, when, Harry Potter book would come out or whatever, it goes on sale at midnight and then nothing goes out before that. But with me, they started shipping the books out bef like, the preorders out, and it hit a bestseller list two weeks before it went on sale. So it was, like, wildly yeah. It was incredible and so uplifting and amazing. And then also really hard because not everyone like, even with the cover, like, people have a strong reaction of, you know, about the idea, about what is allowed to be said about Yep. You know, the dead. Like, not speaking ill of the dead is a huge taboo. What women are supposed to or allowed to say and do, so people have, like, strong reactions that way. And then with the story itself, I guess, like, anytime you're revealing something, there are people who are interested because of maybe, like, kind of more voyeuristic reasons where it's like, you know, oh, the drama and and and to watch and and, like, this story, I Waite it because, oh, I'm gonna I noticed that I feel emotional even thinking Yeah. Say this, but it's like I'm very interested in what heals and how we can, like, come through our adversity and then become like, someone that holds up a light for others. And there were so many people that held up a light for me even if they were one step ahead of me. Yeah.\
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[00:43:05] Importance of Sharing Stories\
Jessica Waite: And so I hope that sharing my story would do that for other people. So that was my motivation. And so the second half of the book really is about, like, my awareness that I didn't want to just spend the rest of my life being bitter and angry and resentful. And then how was I gonna like, what changes could I make to, like, build myself into the purse a person who wasn't that. And so that that's sort of what the second half of the book is about. Like, well, what when you find yourself this way, where do you go and what did what do you do next? And so so that that's, but not everybody's interested in healing. Right? So there there are people who, like, are, like, the first half, like, the very salacious Yes. Tabloid level scandal. They're like, oh, it was so great until it, like, fell apart and she lost her way. And and I'm like\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Loss her anger.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. Yes. I didn't lose my way. I lost my outrage, but I didn't lose it. I surrendered it to, you know, yeah. So so anyway, it's, it's like, people will judge you when when you put your story out there if you're not, like, in a safe circle. But I was okay,\
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[00:44:31] Path to Recovery and Healing\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: like, because\
Jessica Waite: by the by the time that that, like, I am nine years out now. Like, I wasn't sharing this on day one. Like, well, I think and in some ways, I I think the strategy of keeping things in kind of close and then, like, only telling, like, someone that I really trusted would be okay, like and and so so slowly disclosing. That, I think, is probably the best way to do it because it helps you build up your courage. It helps you\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. Yeah. Test the waters as well.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. Yeah.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Mhmm. But, I mean, there's just so much you've just shared and I'm kind of struck by your reaction, which was, you know, how important it is for you to share your story because you know that the importance of healing and how I think incredibly hard it is to actually go to this other side and to reach that sense of peace or kind of that it's not doesn't mean things didn't happen. I think that obviously it's unrealistic to even think or no one would want that to reach that kind of place of, you know, acknowledging, yes, I'm fine. I'm okay about that. But there's something else you're describing, which is making room, I think, for all those very heavy and difficult feelings and not running away from them. But once you once you acknowledge them, something gets released. And I think that's when you get in touch maybe with more with sadness, with this tender feelings. You know, you had tears in your eyes. And I was thinking, because behind every anger, frustration, and rage, there's a lot of pain, but there's also our vulnerability and the fact that we're so helpless in the grand scheme of things. There's nothing we can control, you know, we never know the person we're with, we never fully know ourselves.\
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[00:51:15] Creative Transformation of Grief\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: And, you know, how could we possibly know the other person completely? That's not possible. But but I think what you're describing is that once you make room for those unspeakable parts and you acknowledge that truth about someone else and yourself and the person that died, something beautiful happens which is this kind of more freedom or more tenderness that comes up as you think about this other book that you, you know, you probably started seeing him in a different way and yourself and you know, I can imagine this whole transformation's coming up in yourself and life and, you know, embracing your story, which is so astonishing. So I'm not surprised it became a bestseller before it was even published, you know, really, because it has such a powerful message behind it that it's not about, I'm just gonna be this rageful widow for the rest of my life. Actually, I want to reclaim my life. I want to reclaim myself. And the only way to do it is to acknowledge my rage in the first place and guide myself through it, which you've done so beautifully in your book, which is, you know, a huge gift for, you know, so many people who've been through a loss of a life partner, but also a divorce or you know, I can imagine that a lot of people can relate to being cheated on and, you know, discovering things after if a relationship ends.\
Jessica Waite: Yes. Yes. A lot of people can. Yeah. And and I've been hearing from people. That's the other really wonderful side effect is that I've been getting, like, lots of messages from people. And I don't I don't think it's wonderful that this is so much more prevalent than I understood at the time. But that the fact of, like, when we are honest and share our story, then that invites other people to be able to share as well. And so I know that it's, like, helping a process where people can have someone to say, like, me too and and not feel alone because it's so isolating. And and that's where I feel, you know, like when you're talking about the transformation, that in a lot of ways, I think that's what grief's function is.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Do you\
Jessica Waite: know what it means? To help us transform, but it does take some sticking with it as you said. Yeah. But I think that again, I'll just speak for myself because everyone's situation can be so different. Actually, I'm remembering an expert that that I heard that really helped me. He talked about the difference between grief and mourning. Mhmm. And that mourning was, like, something that you do. It was, like, actions that you take to move these feelings of grief outside of. Yeah. And he said\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Let's let him go.\
Jessica Waite: Yes. And That's an aspect. Too. He said everyone knows what grief is because it's the pain it's the pain and the loss and the anguish that you're feeling in the hole in your life. And whether you feel it or whether you shut it down and numb it out, even like it's one of those things. He said if you don't mourn, you will grieve for the rest of your life and it's like being dead while you're still alive. And I was like Exactly. And and I could see like I know people who have had that experience and I didn't want that for myself, But I think that that the sticking with it is like the coming back to life in a new form. And and so for myself, I found that even with my son who was nine, he has more empathy, more wisdom, more like, because of this grief experience that he had and and to to get those things to get fortified in those things early on, like like, there's something in that that's going to, you know, help him in his becoming. And he's a musician now, and he's, like, a really excellent songwriter. And I think it's probably because of how deeply he's already felt, you know. And so Yeah. So I think that\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: So he embraced that pain and transformed it into something creative.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. Yeah.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Just like you did with your book because writing\
Jessica Waite: Yes. And I think however we do that, that's the thing. I remember Waite the grief expert, he's like, you can garden it out, you can run it out, you can dance it out. It's just like you need it's just invest that into something else and and transform it. And so I think, like, whatever it is that creates a transformation for us. Yeah. So in my case, writing, but it can be could be anything.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: For me, it's writing as well. I'm actually writing my memoir which is a bit of a strange experience in itself, but I think it's something about writing that elicits part of ourselves that we've never knew existed, at least it was for me, that until you write it down, you don't know what's going to come out. And I think that's the beauty of creative writing is that you cannot, you know, things happen and then you try to transform them into something that lives outside of your mind. And I think that for me, that's what mourning kind of represents is, yeah, I often refer to it as doing a load of washing. You've got two piles, the piles of clothes that you want to keep and the piles of clothes that you don't need anymore, belongings that you don't need anymore, and you can look at them, you can fold them away and either give it to charity or give it to someone else, but let go. And I think letting go is such a crucial part, letting go of your anger, meaning that you understand what's hiding behind it. And for me that was a big part of the way I was viewing my late husband changed dramatically in my mind from, you know, idealization to complete rageful kind of denigration and then kind of coming to something that feels more real, more realistic. And I think that is what you're describing is that even at this point where everything gets crushed down, you're able to recover something meaningful from that relationship, from yourself as a person, your life before that. And I think there's huge value in that, in doing that work in different forms, different shapes. You talked about today about writing and, music and, you know, therapy, talking to people, sharing your story.\
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[00:52:54] Impact of Writing on Grief\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: You know, you mentioned doing some work with grief as loss. So it became a focal point of your life and a part of your identity. So, you know, that that's the beauty of it, isn't it? That you when you put that work in, you can take a lot from it, and it doesn't define you as a person because that's not what I see. I don't see Jessica who's a widow full of rage and disappointed. I see a woman who has been able to make room for all those complexities and created something very different and very meaningful. And I think that is a wonderful gift that you gave to the world. And, I'm so glad we had the chance to have this conversation and to listen to your story and the depth of knowledge and and this life wisdom that you shared today, so that's really gonna stay with me. I don't know if you had the last words you wanted to share with our listeners or something you wanted to leave with us.\
Jessica Waite: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. It's been amazing to be here. And there was a lot in what you said thought was just, like, beautifully said, and I loved it. But the one little thing that I wanted to pick up on was when you were talking about, you know, just with the writing and and how transformative it is. But sometimes you would come up with something on the page that you didn't know you thought. And I remember that happening. And one of the things that I felt about, like, the process of grieving is it felt so monotonous and every day seemed like the same kind of heaviness and and when is it ever gonna be after. But just being able to find a little thing that surprises you or sometimes the little things that that delights you, like, to bring that novelty back in. It's just so I love that, like, like, that you were naming that because that's one of the things that I was surprised when I was writing that I would something would come in that was new that I didn't even know that I thought. And, like, that that can be, like, the spark that[00:54:28] Where to Find the Book\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. In the top to see that that Isn't that?\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. This this moment's different from than the one before and that it's not just yeah. It's like a spark of hope or something that can come, like, very early on. So, yeah, I just love that you that you named that. Yeah. So, anyway, thanks again for having me. And and I hope that people I guess, like, if I turn that into something that a listener could take away, you don't have to, like, be a writer or have the most beautiful prose to use the technology of writing to, like, give yourself those gifts. So\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Absolutely.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. It's such a tool.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Absolutely. And and you might be also amazed Waite can come out. I mean, I definitely didn't think of myself as a writer. I mean, I wrote Jessica papers and things like that before, but nothing as creative as it was after my husband died. So I think grief can turn you into it's actually let it happen because it can be transformative as you can see in your book. Can you say maybe just also where we can find a book? I mean I will put some links in the show notes but, you know\
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[00:55:50] Podcast Closing Remarks\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. So in North America, it's for sale, like, anywhere that you get books. In The UK, it doesn't have a UK it has American and Canadian publisher, but not a UK publisher specifically. So I think in The UK, you have to or in Europe or at other parts of the world, I think ordering online is the best way. But Yeah.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Amazon definitely has it.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. Amazon is it. Yeah.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. People can find links in the show notes to connect with you. I know you also have your website, don't you? So we will put some details there that people can find you. Yeah?\
Jessica Waite: Yes. And on my website, my website is jessicawait.work. There's a really amazing animated trailer that my niece made, and I'm just updating my website. So it's a little bit under construction if you go right away. But, anyway, yes, it's worth going just to check out her excellent animation. So\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Oh, definitely share that as well.\
Jessica Waite: Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. I'll I'll yes. I'll send that to you for the show notes too because it's, it's just so, so delightful delightful speaking of creative and wonderful things. So yeah. And family support.\
Dr Monika Wieliczko: Well, thank you so much, Jessica. It's been real pleasure having you on the podcast. Thank you for joining us. I hope you found it useful. Connect with me on Facebook and Instagram resources. Visit guide to afterlife.com to send me your questions and to take part in the grief MOT, your free first aid program for grief. See you next Tuesday for yet another stimulating conversation.\
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Season 2, Ep 9. The Widow's Guide to Dead Bastards, a memoir by Jessica Waite

The Grief MOT

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