Full Transcript
[00:00:07] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Welcome to Guide to Afterlife, your go to podcast for young widows. I'm your host, doctor Monica Velichko, a psychologist a your fellow widow. Each episode brings you insights from world renowned grief experts and authors discussing complex grief issues and their personal experiences of loss. My aim is to challenge the way you think, empower you to face your feelings a help you develop resilient ways to grief. Move beyond surviving each day and visit guidetoafterlife.com to take part in the Grief MOT, your first aid program for grief. A to a guide to afterlife. Today, we're tackling a crucial topic about building emotion regulation skills in children who have lost a parent. We know that grief affects both children and adults in a very profound ways, and navigating it together requires understanding, patience, and tools for emotional growth and resilience. So today, I'm delighted to be joined by Doctor. Jade Redfern. She's a clinical psychologist and a parenting coach who specializes in supporting parents through challenges of raising emotionally resilient children even in the face of grief. So a, Jade. It's so lovely to have you here.
[00:01:34] Dr Jade Redfern: Thank you so much for having me. I feel really grateful to be here.
[00:01:37] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Could you start by maybe sharing a bit about your background and what got you interested in helping a, a, in children and where's this idea coming from?
[00:01:48] Dr Jade Redfern: Yeah. Absolutely. So I've worked in, I guess, the field of psychology for, gosh, nearly two decades now a I most of my experiences started out working with children, adolescents. I think perhaps it came from lots of different reasons that maybe were known to me or not known to me at the time but I guess I am from a big family. I think as an adolescent myself I felt quite misunderstood at times a in our kind of earlier years and you know early 20s a trying to discover a lot about ourselves as well as other people. So I was always drawn to wanting to understand other people and their behaviors and why they do and say the things they do. A worked with children a in so many a, I guess when I used to work in the NHS Emotional Health A, part of the work was kind of moving into different areas. So, working with children and families that often have had traumatic a. So I started out working with looked after children and adopted children and I guess in that area it can experience a lot of loss, a lot of change. Yeah. A my role was often always working with the system around a child and so we don't just work directly with a a, we're also working with their parents or the schools or the systems that are supporting children. I guess for me where it really changed though in the way that I support parents was actually when I became a parent myself which almost seven years ago I remember thinking gosh a a clinical psychologist I've worked with children and families most of my life and I couldn't be better kind of equipped and skilled to do the job of mum surely. Right?
[00:03:19] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Uh-huh.
[00:03:20] Dr Jade Redfern: But yes we a because well I a, I always knew it was emotional but, but actually becoming a mother for me quite honestly floored me. I was not kind of ready or prepared for how much it was going to bring up of my own experiences, my own childhood, you know, my own just my own emotional capacity changed because suddenly the kind of ways that I would manage myself and I was I've always been a doer. I've always been, you know, ambitious and and suddenly, you know, stopping being on maternity leave, being with a baby that has big you know, they cry a lot. They don't sleep. Suddenly, my way of coping was kind of shattered into a, really. And so it brought up a lot of anxiety for me. And that's where I really dug into my own personal growth, my own kind of emotional resilience, I guess, that I couldn't just pour out to everybody else. I had to think about what was coming a for me and how could I pour into myself so that I could be this emotional container that I knew I wanted to be for my children and also for my clients. So that's when, you know, big things shifted for me.
[00:04:21] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. And I'm just kind of thinking about, you know, this this reality check of how we often think or the perceived a that we know it all or that we we have our own expectations that we should deal with things better. But I think when something difficult, life changing a, not necessarily just Jade, like loss a death, but also a positive change, like having a child, brings up so much in us. And, you know, it's just such a crucial truth about life that, you know, you have to a, we have to grow around those changes. Otherwise, they just create more problems that, you know, could be addressed differently if we had the right support and in some ways of dealing with it. So, so which is what I'm hoping that this conversation since is going to offer to our listeners is just very kind of down to earth understanding of what this, I a, this really challenging task of parenting while we grieve is like. And I hear that a lot on social media, but also in Facebook groups for young widow, how a that is, how impossible it is. And we've heard some episodes about solo parenting and helping children grieve in season one, which are really important, I think, to think about what goes on in those relationships between the child and a single parent who's really struggling with grief themselves, and and they've got a child who's obviously lost a parent. So I think that's where I want to start, just kind of thinking about your own kind of clinical a, but also also maybe your personal experiences. I think we always encourage both sides, the personal and a, to be brought into the conversation a what does grieving look like for children and and what do we see when we look at a five year old Dr a three year old or a seven or 12 year old? Because, you know, in some ways we are very similar as adults in terms of how we experience things, but there are also a differences in the way children grieve and cope with loss and experience their emotions depending on their stage of a. So I really wanted to kind of get a sense of what your experiences are like, what you've seen, what you've noticed.
[00:06:46] Dr Jade Redfern: Yeah a. I mean a to you Monika, like I think what you said at the start around the a that can weigh on us, the responsibility a suddenly when we a we're a parent it's not just you know being responsible for our own emotions but we really feel the weight of responsibility for our children. Yeah. And I think this can come in so many different guises as a professional and a psychologist. You can have this knowledge. So perhaps, you know, some listeners may be thinking, you know, I know how I want to respond to my a, but that doesn't always translate in what our body feels able to do in that moment. And I think one thing is giving ourselves a, first of all. If I'm finding a hard, it's because it is hard, not because I'm failing. Because a, actually, it's the stories beneath the feelings and experiences that we're having. We beat ourselves up for how we should be, experiencing something instead of allowing ourselves permission for the experience to be what it is. And I think when it comes to children, there are similarities, of course. But a lot of the time in a children, you know, sort of seven and under, and I say that loosely because, of course, development and age can vary. It's really hard for them to have a concept of when somebody has passed away and what that means a what that looks like. And it can be very hard, I think, for parents to know even how to describe that to a child. I think there are so many layers to grief. You know, we're experiencing our own intense emotions related to the loss itself. And then another, you know, a parent once described it to me as like, you know, so I'm hit with my own grief, that wave that can hit a. Then it's like a second wave coming in where we then experience the Jade. We're feeling the emotion of our child. A then we can also feel a third wave, which is the emotion, the grief, the loss that we're feeling for the person who has passed away. And so sometimes it can feel like we're being hit by a wave after wave after wave, which can feel really, really overwhelming. I think the most important thing to know about children is that a they need this sense that we are going to be okay. And I think often we are thinking about what can I do for my child? So much of it is actually a can I do for myself in order to be that container for my child? And I think that's what's really hard. We can't just put aside, I'm just gonna work on myself. I'm just gonna deal with my grief, and I'll just pause parenting. Parenting is a is a daily twenty four seven kind of thing, and I I guess it's that sometimes we go because being with the feelings is so incredibly painful and hard and overwhelming at times. We can go into many different modes of coping. So one mode of coping can be do do do, go go go. And that can be a way of coping with not wanting to actually be with those feelings.
[00:09:40] Dr Monika Wieliczko: And I think it's
[00:09:41] Dr Jade Redfern: about recognizing that that sometimes actually children are more resilient than we are able to see because we are just seeing through the lens of our pain and our lens of our loss. Children are often looking to us, you know, internally as, am I okay? Is my parent okay? Because I'm okay if my a okay. And a lot of the time, we're feeling like we're not okay. And so I guess it's really thinking about actually what systems and support do I need as the parent because there is no emotional tank big enough. A to feel the weight on our shoulders now, I am now the only parent Mhmm. Is a huge weight and a huge responsibility. So as the parent, what do I feel a what do I need support wise so that I don't have to do this a? And I think I can't stress that enough because if you feel like a tank, your emotional tank isn't big enough, it's because it isn't. It's not because somehow you are failing to provide for your child or an experience. It's because we, as human beings, we talk so much about and we'll get into a, I'm sure, but about self regulation. And actually, I truly believe that, yes, I talk a lot about, and we can talk about this, that the most powerful thing that children need is a with us, which is to borrow our regulation. But actually, I urge adults of all kinds that a we need a. Mhmm. We need connection with others to borrow when our life has been turned upside down or when we are feeling like the rug has been pulled beneath a. The world is spinning because this is one of the hardest things I think with grief is that the world around us keeps moving a we just wish we could press pause. Can I just stop? I I need to just stop the world around us and we can't. A so it's we need a and this can come in so many ways as well, but to feel like you have to self a actually is just putting so much pressure on a.
[00:11:36] Dr Monika Wieliczko: And creates this kind of loop of guilt and sense of failure as you were saying because I think it's such a common thing in grief in a, but also when you add the layer of parenting to it, it obviously magnifies everything. This idea that somehow you have to do it all, yourself, as you're saying, but also I think in some ways, grief brings up such, you know, bit like with becoming like a mother, what you were saying. I think it brings up all those previous losses in us and, you know, and often our childhood losses or things that we didn't have and people we've lost earlier in life or things, not necessarily death, but aspects of our lives that didn't materialize in the way we were hoping for. And when we lose that kind of primary attachment figure of a partner who's also with whom we're co parenting in some ways, it kind of magnifies this whole experience of us kind of being kind of pushed into a position where nothing feels enough a that kind of sense of deprivation can be really profound because what you're saying is that it's not just the reality of having to do more as he's saying, everything is kind of put on the remaining parent or the parenting responsibilities, but also your own internal resources which are completely diminished. And then you can't regulate yourself in the same way as you were able before you lost your partner. It just isn't like you're physiologically your brain just doesn't function in the same way. So reasoning child of all those kind of cognitive functions are depleted. So you know, that in itself is a challenge, isn't it? So then, you know, as you're saying that self regulation, you know, can't happen just internally. You need the external world to help you. That makes a lot of sense a you need external world to help you regulate. And where's your community? Where's your society that helps you get through it if you know very well that grief can be extremely isolating? Because how are you supposed to explain to someone, especially if you've a a partner in your thirties or forties with young a, how are you supposed to explain to them what it's like when your closest friends and family never had that experience and they don't really know how to support you or what you need at the moment. So I think there's just a such a crucial area to to talk about. I don't really think we talk a. There's not that much support out there in a society to address the needs of the families and parents who are grieving and and parenting.
[00:14:22] Dr Jade Redfern: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think a lot of the time, it can feel like it's really hard to know who to turn to because a lot of the time when we're having conversations about grief and about loss, either people because they haven't been through it themselves or they don't know what to say, end up saying nothing or end up almost avoiding the conversation. And then it's that kind of awkward, you you know, because a, if somebody doesn't wanna say how are you because they're guessing and assuming that so then they don't say it at all. And I guess it's around, you know, then that can feel like, you know, are people avoiding me? Because a lot of the time, it can feel very lonely, I think, because people do avoid these conversations. It does bring up their own a sense of, gosh, this could happen to me or, you know, or don't like to be connected with the sense of possible fatality of ourselves, a partner, anyone that we love, our a. And so we avoid these difficult conversations, and I think that can be very hard and painful when you are going through and wanting connection with other people and not really knowing who you can turn to and have those conversations. So a, not always, but sometimes the way as well if I just get my child into therapy, if I just get my child a because you know we want to know that they are okay a then I can try to just deal with myself. And that's a totally reasonable and understandable kind of viewpoint to have. But I think what we also a be thinking about is the system, how can we get support because for the whole system because equally a lot of the time especially for young children we don't necessarily want to be always putting them in therapy and then but because actually they're a be looking toward us. A gonna be looking toward their primary attachment figure for that support and so I really believe truly in the kind of professional support for the parent, for the family as a system as really, really a. So that grief in a child or grief in a parent is not seen as something that they need to be so much treated for. There's something wrong in how they are behaving or experiencing their grief. It's such a unique experience and so much of it is about how can we be child. Yeah. How can we be held compassionately and softly during this difficult time whilst the world around us is still spinning and moving forward? Mhmm. This, you know, felt sense of being held is so important.
[00:16:41] Dr Monika Wieliczko: So there's something about this thinking of family or what you're trying to do as this most like an a comes to my mind is obviously a sense of creating a container on a, like a space where feelings and in experiences can be I'm trying to find the right word. I don't think it's about dealing with them, but kind of just bearing the enormity of the loss. And and I think a lot of parents often feel that they should just be able to cope with it somehow and show to the child that they're not upset or that they always cope with it, which is often misunderstood as some kind of science of resilience, which often is quite the opposite because, you know, how can you not be upset about the fact that your a wife just died or even if that happened several years ago? You know it's always going to be something difficult to deal with. But this kind of ideal a like that we have to create this kind of almost perfect environment where all the feelings are being contained a in a way actually dismissed rather than contained because the containment means that I think something slightly different is that we can just connect with everything that's happening. It doesn't destroy us. We can still experience feelings. But you know, I think I think there's something kind of slightly misunderstood in the wider society about what containing really means. I wonder what you think about that.
[00:18:08] Dr Jade Redfern: Yeah, absolutely. I think that because of so many ways that we're living our lives in this very fast paced child, and I think there's a lot of mixed messages out there about what, say, for example, regulation means. So a lot of people will think regulation means to feel calm all of the time to be in this kind of steady, grounded, steady state. But actually regulation means a, it means adaptability. It makes sense that when you lose a partner that you are feeling all of the that you are feeling all of the feelings. It makes sense that when you lose a partner or anyone important to you in your life that things go through huge amounts of change which puts us into our natural stress response which is often either to be a bit of a hustler, a bit of a do do do go go go because a it's a way of not feeling the feelings, kind of not being in our body with the feelings. Then also we can go into a kind of more of a kind of flight response where we're trying to get away from the feelings and so we're kind of pushing them down, pushing them away, deal with them later. Maybe we, you know, just try to have this exterior where everything looks like it's okay. I don't want people to see me as not coping, so to speak. And and I think that can be really difficult for children as well because then sometimes they feel like actually the message they're getting is it's not okay for them to feel their feelings, that there's something wrong with them if they are upset or angry. And we could talk about anger because anger is a, you know, a fight a. And I like to really talk about and use anger. Anger is a very, very healthy emotion to have. It may not feel that way because it's uncomfortable. We have many stories that we have learned from our own childhoods and our a society that anger is bad. But actually anger, when we think of anger, we use the word mad. When we are feeling mad, this is like SAD's bodyguard. You know, a lot of the time actually beneath the anger is the much more vulnerable feelings that we've not been given permission to have. Too often we are told, you know, oh, please don't cry, You know, which sends a message that crying is this thing that we have to push away. Whereas a, we know from neuroscience, we know from research that actually crying releases. It's a release. You know, emotion is this physical somatic sensations that run through our body, a I have all these all these little mantras that I say with parents that feelings want to be felt, they don't want to be fixed. If you think about a time in your life when you've been feeling really angry or frustrated and somebody says to you, oh, please just calm calm down, it enrages our bodies and our minds because there's this feeling inside that says, how dare you try to squash me? You know, anger is very, very healthy a. As a story to tell Yeah. Or resentment and all these difficult feelings that we've been taught are are a, but really they're just uncomfortable in our body a so so much of this work is about how can we be child. This is, you know, borrow co regulation where we can't find it for ourselves and that's not a failure. A a really tough thing to do, to lean on other people Yeah. Where we can do this work.
[00:21:06] Dr Monika Wieliczko: A. And I think what you just said was so a. So I just wanna circle back to it about anger and, you know, how often our children kind of bring up in parents the issues around, you know, their own emotional experiences. And A was just thinking this is so true because I was thinking about an example of an angry, grieving child who's just really upset about something, you know, and it might not be very clear what's going on for them straight a. But, you know, what then happens often in the parent who's, as you're saying, just saying, well, just stop being so angry. Just calm down. Or, you know, they immediately send a message to that child that, there's something wrong about the reasons why they're angry or something as not quite okay with them a it kind of pushes it down. But I think that one of the reasons why this happens is that because we are struggling with our own anger. And how can we deal with our children's angry feelings or outbursts a kind of make room for that if we can't allow ourselves to be angry widow the fact that our partner just died. Which is such a common issue for widows that we, you know, it's so socially acceptable to be sad to some extent, to be overwhelmed by, you know, this initial stage of grief. But what if you're really angry with by the circumstances of their death or just the fact that you're left alone to parenting and to deal with all a all of all of those issues and problems that come up. And I think it's just such a perfect example of how this kind of container, the system that's meant to be allowing for those feelings to be processed to be dealt with just collapses because this parent probably doesn't feel supported enough to deal with their own anger doesn't have permission. So when you end up having an angry child in front of you you are probably going to say, well, just just calm down. And often, you know, you just don't have the space to deal with a anger. But that kind of reflective capacity as, I think, what really is bringing the change, you know. Can we really think? Can a step away from that? And can we think about that? What is really going on for that child or for in me? Most importantly, what is going on in me right now? Yeah. It's just so complicated, isn't it?
[00:23:40] Dr Jade Redfern: It is. I do believe it's really hard to do this on your own. I think many of us try to do it on our own, but I think when you what ends up parenting, even for psychologists who have the knowledge, I think we get consumed. We get consumed by our own experience. We get consumed by our own feelings and thoughts, and we become kind of enmeshed almost like we will often say I am angry or my child is angry instead of actually becoming the awareness of the feelings that we're having. So a, I am a mother who is experiencing, who is feeling annoyed, frustrated, having these sensations in my body. And when we can give a little bit of distance, and it's very different to pushing away or suppressing the feeling, but actually becoming the awareness of the feelings and thoughts that I'm having can be a very profound thing that we can do, and it's the same for our children. Our job is not to fix how our children feel. That being said, if a child is obviously acting out, so is behaving in an aggressive way because children are their bodies know. Their bodies know that to to push in and wear the stress in their body is not healthy for them. And so actually a child who is acting out and behaving aggressively as an example, or who is crying or who is behaving in a certain way, instead of thinking how do I stop this behavior, it's really about actually this is really smart because their bodies intuitively know that to hold on to that stress is not healthy for them. However, that does not mean that we want to allow our kids to just hit us or to hit. We do have to protect them. So we that's where and I think this is very, very hard when you were going through a traumatic difficult experience yourself, is there's a lot now out there around helping validate children's experiences, give permission for feelings, but that doesn't mean that we let the feelings run the a, that doesn't mean that we allow them to hurt themselves or to hurt others. This is where the boundaries come in place. This is where actually children still need that routine and predictability and sturdy boundaries to put in place, which I know can be very, very a. We're we're struggling, which is again why I think finding someone that you can co regulate widow, that you can have that space with. Going back to the idea of the container is not about containing in, but actually like holding holding space for whilst also being a barrier between we cannot allow our children to hit. And so sometimes we have to allow so what can they hit? What what how can they get that anger out? Like, so, okay. Hitting your sister is not okay. I will not let you hurt yourself a I will not let you hurt your sister. But absolutely, what you parenting to do is right. Get that anger out. And if when we can allow that permission often, and this may take some time, what we're really trying to move our children toward is actually their tears. Because the meltdowns you know that feeling when you're with a child, they've been grief, angry, angry, and it's bottled, and then something softens and the tears come. And that's where you want to be giving that a. Let it out. Let it out. I had my a. She's six. And, and she went up to the youngest. I've got three. He's just one. And, and I thought, oh, gosh. She's so my daughter because she went up to him and said recently, that's it. Let it out. Let it out. Your tears are welcome here.
[00:26:49] Dr Monika Wieliczko: A. That's so
[00:26:52] Dr Jade Redfern: sweet. But just modeling this idea that actually we move the anger up and out a by accessing those tears, by accessing some of our vulnerable feelings, and and and allowing for an expression of. So we want to stop behavior that is going to be hurting themselves or hurting others, but finding an outlet for it. Yeah. And that's the really important part. Mhmm. And and it's the same for our own feelings, allowing ourselves a safe outlet for what can we how can we allow our bodies, even if it's micro moments, if it's like two minutes a day, five minutes a day, you know, I'm not I never suggest to a parent, you know, we need to be sitting for hours upon hours feeling the feeling. You know, this is Monika overwhelm a, but what can we and there's so many different ways of doing this.
[00:27:37] Dr Monika Wieliczko: A. And I was thinking, this is so important for everyone to hear a crucial difference between child of suppression of the feelings that we're having and and a healthy, almost like encouragement, how to let them out in a safe environment. So how do you provide that kind of almost like a sounding board a where they can express themselves, when they can be heard and and validate it. But with those boundaries in place, I mean, this is such an important, I think, middle ground, I think, that we all want to achieve because there's something about, you know, how do we parent ourselves and how does that translate into how we parent our child. This is so incredibly valuable, what you just said, Jade, because I think a lot of people just get a bit confused about what it means because, you know, when you have a child who's just lost a parent, I think there might be quite a strong pull towards trying to compensate for their loss, you know, trying to make it all better or trying to, I don't know, turn it into something that is less painful for them. So how could you potentially shout or, you know, set limits with a child who's grief? And I think there's that complexity and then obviously children are very clever. They know that
[00:28:55] Dr Jade Redfern: you
[00:28:55] Dr Monika Wieliczko: struggle parenting those limits so they push the boundaries.
[00:29:00] Dr Jade Redfern: Absolutely. I mean, let's let's give a practical example of this where it might show up. You know, when you've had loss, this can lead to understandable kind of anxieties going around for everybody. And so often when we have these kind of anxieties and separation anxieties or we've gone through a lot, these difficulties can come up, let's just a, at bedtime. Right? I talk to families every single day about bedtime battles. So here's an example of how get it trying to get that a, right, with your child. And it's nothing's ever a be that the magic answer. A children require us to set boundaries. They're not gonna thank us for them. They're not gonna say, no. I'm so grateful for the boundaries that you set. No. Like, that's where community comes in. That's where being part a, I don't know, a parenting space that gets it that that, you know, that you can cheer on your wins. Right? Your kids are not a do that for you, and they're not here to validate us. Right? But children need that consistency and boundaries more than ever if you are going through a hard time. So if anything, they need that consistency more. Our job is to set the boundary. Our widow' job is to push back. If you can have that as a clear mantra, then we're gonna become a little less triggered by our kids pushing back. They're doing their job. That's great. They're pushing back because they want to know where the limit lies. And if sometimes the wall collapses and other times it a, you know, they they don't know, and that leads to kind of more insecurity and uncertainty. So with bedtimes, as an example, this is where a lot of the time when we're trying to do, I don't know, attachment parenting, we're trying to allow for the feelings, children will pick up on this. A so my kids will now they'll say one more thing, one more this one more question. My four year old at the moment is using a lot of like but I'm going to be scared mommy I'm going to have a bad dream mommy I'm going to this is going to happen and that's going to happen. And so whilst I am validating that experience, I'm not, you know, saying a that down, but with a very sturdy a voice. And it's also this embodiment. And it just takes a little bit of practice, but this embodiment around my a is is still my boundary essay. Absolutely. And I know and and I won't go to the dream thing now, but we've done a little bit of work around this. Remember what we spoke about? That's what you're gonna do. It won't work, mommy. I know, but I trust you. You will be fine, and I will check on you in five minutes. I'm now I'm leaving, and I widow back in five. And my my voice and my embodiment of the boundary is very, very clear. And it's very strong and sturdy because I think if I then start to come back and and just lie for, it it will be five minutes. It will be ten minutes, and then I'll be lying with him all evening until he falls asleep. We have to see our children as capable. We have to believe in the resilience within them, and then they feed from our energy. And that's again the reason for doing this work for ourselves as doing the work for our children because if we can embody our own resilience and our own, this is so incredibly hard a we will get through this. But I think what you
[00:31:48] Dr Monika Wieliczko: just said there about resilience, and I think that's another concept that is misunderstood in the society a resilience, meaning I can cope with it all by myself, which is often this kind of skewed idea of what what it means to be resilient because to me, it's always it's about being able to access the resources you've got around you, being able to ask for help. That's the bravest thing you can do a acknowledging your own limitations, knowing your strengths, but also acknowledging those limits. And I think that is so helpful again a to you a how, you know, we often assume that we have to fulfill all those needs in our children and not letting them practice that kind of resilience building which is what you were just describing, you know, you'll stay here for five minutes I will come back and check on you. A child know that the parenting there a they're also letting them kind of check out a if they can manage because you know it's anxiety isn't it like oh my child won't be able to sleep.
[00:32:48] Dr Jade Redfern: A and my son at the emotional, if we're in this little pattern at the moment, but he will say I feel Jade, I miss you a I say I know, I love you And I still walk away because I trust that he can be with his sadness and be okay. And it's not about fixing the feelings. It's not about getting rid of them. And I I think there's a mixture as well. It's like resilience is about, oh, we have to take away our children's pain or we have to take away their sadness. You know, when we think about, okay, a child who we want them to develop frustration tolerance skills because they are going to go through life and they are going to experience a, for example. They're going to experience times when they don't get what they want or a friend says something mean or hurtful. That doesn't mean we deliberately make life hard for our kids. It just means that, you know, a lot of parents will ask me a the consequence? What do I need to teach it? Life is the lesson. Like, life will happen. Allow for those things to a. And then it's about helping our children see, but we have to see ourselves as capable to be able to then look through that lens and see our children as capable too. Because when we see our children as capable, it's like, I know. Right? And you will get through this. Like, I believe you. And so we don't have to rescue our children from sadness or anger or frustration, but actually give them the tools to work through it. Again, regulation is not about being calm or being, you know, resilience is not about being happy all of the time. I ask parents all the time, what do you want most for your children? I just want them to be happy. I mean, what parent can't relate to that? That's not a bad wish to have for your child. But if we're always looking through that lens, I'm a good parent when my child is happy, you're a keep feeling like you're failing because I encourage parents to frustrate their a, to set boundaries a for their kid to be like 'ah'. My six year old said to me a few weeks ago you've ruined my life. I mean it was pretty dramatic but at the same time because I told her she's six and she can't have a phone. Right? So I've ruined her life. In that moment, it's it's like, you know
[00:34:36] Dr Monika Wieliczko: That's what it feels like.
[00:34:37] Dr Jade Redfern: And I was like, I know. I know. It's hard. It's hard to not get what you want. I love that you want things. And my answer right now is still no. It won't be no forever a right now it's no. And so she's learning you know to become frustrated that's how they learn frustration tolerant skills. To become sad, to feel disappointed, to feel a, you know all these emotions is a real authentic human experience that we want our children to go through. That does not mean when we go through a huge loss, you know, of course we did not ask for this. This is not what we would have planned or hoped for our life or for anyone, you know. And when I have experienced, you know, my own loss when I was younger, you know, I often think about some of the difficult experiences I've had. I a wish this on anybody. And at the same time, depending on where you are, you know, in your journey, like, you really can thrive from really, really difficult experiences in your life because, unfortunately, as human beings, it often takes us where we get to our limit, to our edge, to our worst pain, that it drives something inside of us, especially as parents and as mothers. When you have another child that you now so want to do this for, it can push us toward doing this work.
[00:35:51] Dr Monika Wieliczko: A. And I think that is so important to hold on to, that resilience building kind of environment that you're trying to create with a child. Because I was just thinking about what happens in the family unit where one of the parents is obviously gone and how that kind of restructures, you know, the family unit and and the the kind of the functions of different people involved. And, you know, especially if you've got more than one child and, you know, what happens with the older child in comparison to the younger child, there are different child of ways of parenting. And we've had some episodes on that. Before, especially thinking about the role of a a, I think it was the second episode in season one when it was a perspective of a child reflecting back as an adult, reflecting back on what it was like and the role she took in a family. In some ways, trying to support the mother and trying to child of to step in and be, you know, take up the the front seat in a car. I think that's a really nice analogy, but I think often it happens that, you know, things shift around and relationships obviously change. And often one of the things that I've heard people say is that the relationship with the the mother or father who's still alive and and the child becomes much closer in some ways. And I think, you know, thinking about all those challenges around resilience and separation anxiety, which often kind of comes up after someone dies in the family, is such a crucial a, I think, for many a. Just knowing how do you navigate that territory, knowing that, you know, on the one hand, there is this need for support and containment and, you know, kind of allowing the feelings to flow, but also kind of knowing the child over time grows the capacity to tolerate certain things. And, you know, obviously you will be behaving differently the first few weeks after someone dies and then in a to what it is, you know, maybe six or nine months or a year or two, you know, kind of your emotional reactions will change. But but I think it almost feels like this is not never spoken about in the same way. But I was just thinking it's such a huge issue thing for so many a, knowing how to create a lasting kind of connection with your child when you grieve, but also having some separation. A when you were saying about this moment of leaving a child in a bedroom for five minutes, I'm gonna check on you in five in five a, but just just see how you I believe you're gonna be able to cope with it. There is this kind of an idea that something kind of can be worked through despite the loss. So life continues that, you know, that the family survived the loss. It's hard. It's a, but we can we are still continuing as a as a family. And that can be incredibly difficult, I think, for parents to, in some ways, so I think, acknowledge that we're still living and continue living. So I don't know, but I feel like this as something that's kind of so commonly misunderstood, trying to compensate for the loss, trying to kind of create almost like putting sometimes a child in a position of a partner. Like, a child as this kind of natural tendency to just kind of slot into that role because that's what happens when the family role is being, taken out of the, kind of equation, if you like. You know, someone's no longer there. They can't play that same role, so someone else has to take up that role. And which is why I think what your comment about having the environment, having the friends a family members who step in and take up some of those roles, even if it's just temporary, it's so important, isn't it? Because otherwise, you can't physically do it all by yourself. It's just not going to work.
[00:39:53] Dr Jade Redfern: And I think when we think about a loss, it can feel very it can feel very abstract. Like, say for a, a lot of the time, actually, and for young children, you know, they can experience loss when we're not with them. And we think about a lot of the time, you know, there's a lot now around about attachment and attachment parenting. But I think we we misunderstand this as meaning attachment because we think about the word attachment, perhaps not in the way that we understand it as a, but actually even a, parents I work with a lot of psychologists a who I think do have an understanding of attachment, but I think sometimes we then mistake this idea that, like, our children can therefore not feel like we've abandoned them. We don't want them to feel like we've somehow let them down or, you know, we hate the idea. You know, my my youngest at the moment is going through some settling sessions at nursery. And I feel it. I I'm like, oh, there's this pull a, like, you know, oh, he's going to he's gonna feel my loss. But there's so much that we can do in that. And a lot of it is how we can infuse our presence in our children's lives when we're not there. And these can be done really simple practical ways. You can put a little note in their lunchbox. And and what this is teaching children is or sometimes you can draw a little, heart on their arm before they go to school or preschool or and one on yours, and then you can fill it up with kisses and you can say to them anytime you miss me, you can press your heart a I will press mine. And it's a way of staying connected. When we think of attachment, think of it like an invisible string. Yeah. That that when you build this relationship with your kids, that the connection is still a. And and there are ways we can honor that. We can honor, you know, my Monika couple of weeks ago as really missing me. And instead of me child of going on, like, why? Why? What's wrong? What's wrong? Why? Why? It was a, like, just take the experience for what it is. And I asked him, would you like to take one of that? We've got some photos in our fridge. And he said he said there's a particular photo he loves. It's of him as a young baby. And he said, yeah. I'm gonna take it in. I'm gonna show my teachers. So he took it in, and it makes the abstract and scary more concrete and visual for children. And I would argue that a we need these. We need these two. A inner child within us still needs this. Right? And the message of sending your children is even when we are not physically together, you still exist, I still exist, you are still held in my mind. And you can do this in really simple ways. So you can say things to your children, you know, when you pick them up from school and you have that moment of reunion, you can say I've missed you today. When I was having my chicken sandwich, I was thinking of you because I know how much you love chicken sandwiches or I don't know. It can be anything. You can make it a. So a, when they go away from you, like you can create a visual stories with them to show them what you're doing, what they're doing, that you still exist. And I think for children who go through a big loss, a big change, a big transition, just using these strategies even more can be really, really a. Because, again, it's a way of us infusing our presence even when we're not there.
[00:42:39] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes a I think you're this is so interesting what you're saying a I think you you've got this real skill at kind of translating very complex psychological theory of attachment which is actually you know more complex than people think into this very practical way of, you know, how do you foster this healthy a, which is about, you know, as he's saying, the the ability to internalize with kind of something kind of that we're experiencing day in day out into something internal in us which is often very difficult for children when they're small. They need something kind of more tangible like the a the heart that you draw a heart on their arm or or give them something that transitional object that kind of remind them of the bond of the you know we're talking about the string. And it's just such an important lesson I think about this kind of connection and then the disconnection a then then the safe reconnection, which is when you go to school or to nursery, and then you come back and everything's fine. And if this happened frequently enough, of course, you learn that it's okay, that you can always come back. And And I think when I think of it in the context of death of a father or a mother, there's obviously a very difficult task at hand because the person has actually disappeared from the child's life. So that is a traumatic experience. But there are ways how you can obviously reconnect with that a. And for some child, it will be very hard. And we've talked about it in previous episodes in season one, especially helping children grief, I think is one of the latest episodes a or 10. For those who are listening to to be really helpful to kind of to come back to that perhaps if you want to learn more. But this idea that somehow you can learn to reconnect with that parent even if you didn't know them, but you can kind of through telling the stories, through kind of remembering the person who died and being open about what they were like, you you can really kind of build that connection with them, which is often so traumatic for children if it happens before the age of three or four. Probably you are not going to remember their parent. But if it happened later on in life, they might have got some bits of information but not that much. But, you know, this this whole kind of attachment theory is so so fundamentally helpful in understanding what what is it really the task of you as a parent to foster that resilience and embody that kind of sense of connection to safety that kind of because, you know, when someone dies, you your whole kind of concept of safety and stability, predictability lapses. So it's a huge, obviously as enormous, potentially very traumatizing experience. But as we were saying, you know, it doesn't have to be that profoundly destabilizing. It's all about how we, in some ways, we can influence it by the way we manage it and how we kind of deal with it afterwards. The aftermath of trauma is often what matters more rather than what actually happened to you which we often forget.
[00:45:56] Dr Jade Redfern: And I think giving ourselves permission that we can ask for help, Right? Because I think what you're saying there as, like, actually the loss, you know, and it can be it can be very a. It can be very traumatic. It can be, like, actually, we go into survival mode. So one of the things that's really important for children that I think often doesn't happen is because we worry about talking about it and making it worse. If we bring this a, we're going to bring up their feelings and so then it doesn't get talked about. But actually the feelings are going to be there and actually what's more scary for a child is the not knowing or this isn't okay to talk about or I've got these feelings and I shouldn't have them so so I'm a try and push them away. So it's finding a narrative, finding a way a of course that can be challenging when you are going through your own experience, your own trauma. And so this is where they ask you for help where and it's not about necessarily somebody else doing it for you, but somebody doing it with you. And actually, the more honest we can be with children a, yes, there's an element of what's developmentally appropriate depending on exactly what has happened. But the more honest we can actually be because children, especially under the age of a, I use seven, but this is just roughly, you know, fantasy and reality is blurred. Right. And this is why children love stories. This is why children, you know, and often parents will say to me around the age of three and four, my child keeps lying. A child, you know, but actually child are just like they're in their own world a they believe, you a, and you can use this because the children just need to know a, you know, and otherwise what happens is children will come up with their own fantasies, they will come up with their own a. And a lot of the time, because as human beings, we like to have a perception of control. You know, sometimes when children can believe that it's something they did or something that they caused because suddenly someone was there and then the next day they disappeared. And that's so abstract that they're confusing for children. A, of course, there's not the perfect way of doing this. There's not it's not about getting it right or wrong. And it is about, I think, asking for help because I think it can be very, very hard putting a coherent narrative to something that you yourself are obviously struggling with and grappling with. And this is a I think that need for bringing in a resource or a person that can help you do this. Diane Goldenberg Hart A children often then want to on repeat, they want to be told again and that's painful because then you're talking about it again you're bringing up for yourself again. Diane Goldenberg Hart So first let's acknowledge this is hard, but also acknowledging that actually children need often that information. For things and it's not that it's going to necessarily make sense, but so that their own mind a come up widow. Because then a you can find is, of course, if a child's mind has come up with the idea that one moment you can be there, the next minute you're gone and it's you know it's kind of this. Sharon joshne Sharon joshne And they're gonna send me to school, poof, and they're gonna be gone. And, of course, we can't always say that's not going to happen because that's one of the things this puts us in touch widow. Right? It's our own a, which is scary for every single human being. We can't make those a. But again, the more you can make there to be more of a concrete narrative, as honest as we can be for ourselves and our kids, this is going to anchor them. It's actually going to help them. The unknown is more scary.
[00:49:05] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. And as you're saying, and that kind
[00:49:07] Dr Jade Redfern: of
[00:49:07] Dr Monika Wieliczko: tendency to maybe compensate for those losses that the child experienced could be actually dysfunctional in a way that it will aggravate their anxiety, make them feel more anxious about the fact that, you know, I can't leave the house because my child's gonna feel anxious again or, you know, they they refuse to go to school because they worry about what's gonna happen to mommy or daddy who's who's still with them. And I think that is such a a such a difficult position to be in if you don't have that external help to help you figure out what is this child really anxious about and what's the right way to respond. And I know that you do a lot of that work in your parenting, coaching program. Could you say a little bit about that? What you how how it works, what you what you do exactly with with parents and how that structure kind of comes a? Because, you know, I think what you what you're saying is actually this environment that holds people together, that holds parents together and and where they can share those experiences. I'm really curious about what that's like.
[00:50:18] Dr Jade Redfern: Yeah. So so my kind of parenting space and community is called inside out parenting because Mhmm. As you can probably kind of guess, like, from our conversation today, it's very much about what's going on on the inside as well as the outside. And that's not just for our kids, but also for us as parents. And so a lot of the time when you were just saying, Monica, like, you know, perhaps we're feeling anxious about our child feeling anxious. Right? But also if, you know, not only is it our child now feeling anxious because they've a loss of a parent, for example, they also are feeding off our a, and and we are feeding off their anxiety. And so for me, Inside Out Parenting was born because having been a therapist and a psychologist for many, many years, what I learned becoming a parent was actually this is as much about us as it is about them. Because if we don't see ourselves a capable, we're not gonna look through the lens of seeing our children as capable. Because also when you've experienced a loss, it's not just your child's kind of world being being you know, our view of the world changes in that bad things happen to good people. A then you know we start to become anxious about the a, you know we could lose somebody else in our life, we could lose a child and. And so this is where it's very difficult to just take yourself off and go right I'm going to work on my parenting or take yourself off go I'm going to work, you know I'm going to help my child. Nikita Abigail it's this kind of inside out nature and it's it's really profound really because a when we have a space that we can co regulate with others. Nikita Abigail When we can show a. And sometimes it's not always about fixing the feelings as we spoke about earlier. It's about actually having a space and a permission to have those feelings and a that we're not alone in those feelings, to co regulate in a space. Because when we are co regulated with with others, we then have that little bit more capacity each day to co regulate with our kids because there is no emotional tank big enough. Then when you throw in losses or traumatic experiences, it makes it so much harder and we end up becoming more and more child of insular in the way that we're trying to support ourselves or support our kids. It's also about deshaming us and being able to actually have access to resources that are going to help. For me, the biggest thing about Inside Out Parenting is that it's really a. You know, and, you know, one to one work can be really beneficial for people. It's not always accessible for people. And so instead of parenting is about supporting you as a but you can't just put parenting on hold a we go work on ourselves. It a has to happen at the same time. And so, that's very much around. And, of course, no matter what you've been through, your kids, my kids, they are going to trigger us the most because you have that connection with them because you, you know, you love them so much that you can, you know, we all as times can kind of enmeshed in our widow. And when we start to see our kid behave in a certain way, it activates something inside of us. That's what inside out parenting is about. It's about how can we become more aware and in tune and have resources for our own regulation and co regulation as well as for our kids. It's like the combination is what makes it most effective.
[00:53:10] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yes. Absolutely. And there's just such a nice way of kind of joining this kind of community of people who are, you know, experiencing similar struggles, you know, because it doesn't have to just be death. It could be other challenging experiences that could strain or previous losses. It doesn't have to be a current loss, it's something that happened in the past. So I think there's so many layers of complexity that kind of can be brought into the picture. So it sounds like a very nurturing kind of stabilizing almost presence where people can come in and join and a their experiences and take something from it, some practical skills. Can you say a bit more where people can find you in terms of, you know, your a, the inside out, but also the, you know, a some social media, you know, where to find you, where to follow you.
[00:54:00] Dr Jade Redfern: Yeah. Sure. So I limit my social media to A. Mhmm. And I have a free Facebook group, which is kind of a nice introduction to kind of me and my child. And I share all sorts of bits and pieces in there. The conscious parent grief. So basically a Facebook group, but also Instagram, which is just at doctor Jade Redfern, and I share what I can. I have a love hate relationship with social media. It connects me with so many wonderful parents. But equally, I think there are times when I think we need to be off social media and really connecting with people in different healthy ways because social media can, you know, can bring up a lot for all of us. But that's ultimately where people can initially find me. A, of course, I can, you know, share my website with you as well. That's helpful.
[00:54:40] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Yeah. So we'll put all those links in the show notes. So if you want to learn more about the inside out, a also just connect with Jade and and get a sense of what she does, you know, it would be helpful to just go to to her website and just follow her on social media. But she's saying you know a connection is key. I think that's a brilliant takeaway message from today's conversation is how do we connect in a way that is nurturing and helps to co regulate ourselves with the outside child, with other people, but also with our children and how to make that a sustainable system. And I think there's something beautiful about the way you were describing the system and and thinking about why the system and what what the system needs rather than just focusing on the child and how that emotional regulation resilience can be fostered through all those conversations. So so I took so much from just talking to you for for now, Ajay. So I thank you so much for all your insights and outs a all those kind of little nuggets of information that I think could be so a, but also kind of I'm hoping that it will just help people shift a little bit in the way they perceive things like resilience and a regulations a and what it means to parent and what it means to grieve while we're parenting. So it's been truly wonderful to have you here, and thank you so much.
[00:56:04] Dr Jade Redfern: Thank you. No. Thank you so much for having me. And, yes, I just give permission a to be human. It's my my final thing. Just permission to be human.
[00:56:12] Dr Monika Wieliczko: That's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. I hope you found it useful. Connect with me on Facebook and Instagram under Guide to Afterlife for more brief tips and resources. Visit GuidetoAfterlife.com to send me your questions and to take part in a Grief MOT, your free first aid program for grief. See you next Tuesday for yet another stimulating conversation.
